ANSWERS TO REVIEW QUESTIONS
prepared by Rabbi Eliezer Chrysler
Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Jerusalem
Previous daf Menachos 87
MENACHOS 87 (7 Teves) - Dedicated by Dr. Josh Daniel of Efrat, Israel, in
memory of his brother, Yitzchok Yisroel [ben Refael Noach Yosef] Daniel, on
(a) Our Mishnah invalidates wine that is *sweet*, boiled or smoked even
Bedieved, but permits 'ha'Listavan (which is also sweet) Bedieved'. Ravina
resolves the discrepancy with 'K'roch ve'Tani'- by which he means that he
changes the text to 'Ein Mevi'in ha'Listavan, Le'fi she'Ein Mevi'in Lo Masuk
... ; ve'Im Heivi, Pasul' (see also 'Tosfos' DH 'K'roch ve'Tani').
(b) Rav Ashi disagrees. According to him - sweet wine is Pasul, because the
sweetness is created by the fruit itself; whereas ha'Listavan is Kasher,
because its sweetness is caused by the sun.
(c) Rebbi in our Mishnah, invalidates old wine. Chizkiyah cites his source
as the Pasuk "le'Keves Yayin" - comparing wine to a lamb, which becomes
Pasul after one year.
(a) The Beraisa - validates Bedieved, wine that is two years old.
(b) We know that the author is Rebbi - since he is the to invalidate old
(c) This refutes Chizkiyah's suggested source - because if we learned old
wine from a lamb, it would be Pasul even Bedieved.
(d) Rava therefore learns it from the Pasuk in Mishlei "Al Teire Yayin ki
Yis'adam" - which teaches us that wine must be red, and its true redness
begins to dissipate after one year (see also Rabeinu Gershom).
(a) The Beraisa comments on 'Keramim ha'Avudim' - that the vineyards which
produced wine for the Nesachim, should be plowed twice a year.
(b) Rav Yosef used to plow his vineyard twice a year. As a result - he was
able to add six parts water to one part wine, instead of three.
(c) The Beraisa comments on the ruling of our Mishnah, forbidding large
barrels 'Kadiyos Ludiyos Beinoniyos' - meaning the medium size barrels that
they used in Lud ...
(d) ... which should not be stored - one on top of the other.
(a) We learned in our Mishnah how the Gizbar would bang on the barrel with
his cane the moment the dregs began to emerge from the tap. The reason that
he did not announce this verbally is - because talking causes wine to
(b) Rebbi Yochanan, the author of this statement, presents - Ketores as the
antithesis of wine in this regard. Speaking he maintains, is good for
(c) Rebbi Yochanan asks whether, according to Rebbi Yossi b'Rebbi Yehudah in
our Mishnah, someone who declares wine containing fungal growth, will
receive Malkos, because, as we learned in the Mishnah, he considers it a
Ba'al-Mum. Why might he not do so?
(d) What is the outcome of the She'eilah?
(a) The Beraisa cites Mo'av as the ideal location for rams, and Chevron, as
the ideal location for lambs. For the best ...
1. ... calves one would go to - the Sharon ...
(b) Based on the Pasuk in Yeshayah "Yir'eh Mikn'cha ba'Yom ha'Hu Kar
Nirchav", Rebbi Yehudah say there - that for the Korbnanos, they would bring
lambs that were so fat, that they were as wide as they were tall.
2. ... and for the best birds (doves and pigeons) - to Har Hamelech.
(a) Yeshayah ha'Navi refers to the guardian angels whom Hashem placed on the
walls of Yerushalayim. Their other function is - to remind Hashem about
***** Hadran Alach 'Kol Korbenos Tzibur' *****
(b) They say "Atah Sakum Terachem Tziyon" (Tehilim), according to Rava bar
Rav Shilo, and "Boneh Yerushalayim Hashem" (ibi.), according to Rav Nachman
bar Yitzchak - during the time of the Churban.
(c) Whereas they would say the Pasuk (also in Tehilim) "Ki Bachar Hashem
be'Tziyon, Ivah le'Moshav Lo" - whilst the Beis-Hamikdash was standing.
***** Perek Sh'tei Midos *****
(a) According to the Tana Kama of our Mishnah, there were two dry measuring
vessels in the Beis-Hamikdash, an Isaron and half an Isaron. Based on the
Pasuk "Isaron Isaron la'Keves ha'Echad", Rebbi Meir said - that there were
two measuring vessels of one Isaron.
(b) The Tana Kama's Isaron was used - to measure all the Menachos.
(c) They measured the three Sa'ah of a bull - one Isaron at a time.
(d) The half-Isaron was used - to measure the Chavitei Kohen Gadol (which
comprised one Sa'ah, but) which was brought half in the morning and half in
(a) The two Isaron measuring vessels according to Rebbi Meir in the
Beraisa - were 'Gadush' (a vessel that contained an Isaron when it was piled
high over the top) and 'Machuk' (a larger vessel which held an Isaron when
it was just full).
(b) The Machuk was used - to measure the Chavitei Kohen Gadol, which Rebbi
Meir was afrai, would spill when they came to divide it, if they were to use
the regular Gadush.
(c) The Rabbanan learn from the Pasuk there "ve'Isaron Echad la'Keves
ha'Echad" - that there was only one Isaron.
(d) The Rabbanan learn the measuring vessel of half an Isaron from "v'Isaron
Isaron" ('Im Eino Inyan'); whereas Rebbi Meir learns it from - the extra
'Vav' at the beginning of "ve'Isaron ... ".
(a) The Rabbanan learn nothing from the extra 'Vav' - because they do not
consider it superfluous.
(b) From "ve'Isaron Echad la'Keves ha'Echad" Rebbi Meir learns - that there
was no measuring vessel of three Isaron for the Nesachim of a bull, nor two
for a ram, in the Beis-Hamikdash.
(c) The Rabbanan learn that from 'Nikudo', like Rebbi Yossi in the Beraisa
(from the first "Isaron" of "Isaron Isaron la'Keves he'Echad" mentioned on
the first day of Succos). He is referring to - a Dagesh (a dot) in the 'Vav'
of the first Isaron.
(d) Rebbi Meir - does not Darshen 'Nikudo'.
(a) The Beraisa rules - that Chavitei Kohen Gadol may not be brought already
(b) Consequently, says Rav Sheishes, when our Mishnah says that the Chatzi
Isaron was to measure the Chavitei Kohen Gadol, it is referring to halving
it after it has been brought to the Beis-Hamikdash.
(c) Rami bar Chama asked Rav Chisda whether, according to Rebbi Meir, the
Chatzi Isaron was Gadush or Machuk. He did not ask the same She'eilah
according to the Rabbanan - because he was not even sure whether, in their
opinion, the Isaron measure was Gadush or Machuk.
(d) Rav Chisda replied that we learn Rebbi Meir from Rebbi Meir and the
Rabbanan from Rebbi Meir, by which he means - that just as Rebbi Meir
himself requires Machuk for the Isaron of the Chavitei Kohen Gadol, so too,
does he require Machuk for the Chatzi Isaron. And in that case, the
Rabbanan (who do not argue with Rebbi Meir in this point), must also hold
that the Chatzi Isaron and consequently the Isaron, were Machuk.
(a) When Rami bar Chama asked Rav Chisda whether the Chavitei Kohen Gadol
were divided by hand (by assessment) or using a K'li, he was referring to -
the division into six Chalos, of the half Isaron of baked loaf (both in the
morning and in the afternoon [see also Tosfos DH 'Bameh').
(b) Rav Chisda replied emphatically that they did it by hand - because the
measuring bread with scales is considered a curse, as the Torah writes in
the Tochachah in Ki Savo "Ve'heishivu Lachmechem ba'Mishkal".
(a) When Rami bar Chama then asks Rav Chisda whether the Kematzim became
sanctified on the Godesh of the Shulchan or not - he is referring to the
Kometz of the Minchah and that of the Levonah.
(b) His She'eilah is whether or not - they become sanctified if they are
placed either between two of the Chalos instead of on the actual Shulchan,
or even on the Shulchan, but without the K'li into which they ought to have
been placed (in which case Rami bar Chama refers to it as Godesh, because
the Shulchan does not have a Beis Kibul [a receptacle], so that whatever is
above table-level is considered Godesh).
(c) They will not become sanctified - if the Shulchan only sanctifies what
it is supposed to sanctify (and in the way that it is supposed to sanctify).
(a) We query Rav Chisda's answer 'Eino Mekadesh' from a statement by Rebbi
Yochanan, who says that depending on whether the folds in the loaves extend
vertically two and a half Tefachim or two Tefachim (and bearing in mind that
each row of loaves consisted of six loaves) - the air-space above the
Shulchan sanctifies fifteen Tefachim (6x2 1/2) or twelve Tefachim (6x2).
(b) And we reconcile Rav Chisda with Rebbi Yochanan - by saying 'Eino
Mekadesh Likareiv (like Rav Chisda) Aval Mekadesh Lipaseil' (like Rebbi
(a) Our Mishnah now deals with the liquid measures in the Beis-Hamikdash.
Based on the Hin and the Log, the seven liquid measures listed by the Tana
Kama are Hin (i.e. six Lugin), half a Hin, a third of a Hin and a quarter of
a Hin; a Log, half a Log and a quarter of a Log.
(b) According to Rebbi Eliezer b'Rebbi Tzadok, there were only two liquid
measures in the Beis-Hamikdash, a Hin and a Log. And they measured the
fractions that were necessary for bulls, rams and lambs - by marking the jar
(c) Rebbi Shimon dispenses with the Hin altogether, adding a measure of one
and a half Lugin instead - for the Chavitei Kohen Gadol (which required one
and a half Lugin in the morning and one and a half in the afternoon).
(d) Rebbi Yehudah in a Beraisa, lists the seven liquid measures starting
from a Revi'is ha'Log. Rebbi Yehudah - lists them the other way round,
starting with the Hin.