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prepared by Rabbi Eliezer Chrysler
Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Jerusalem

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Sanhedrin 69



(a) The Beraisa learns from the extra 'Vav' in the Pasuk (in connection with a Shifchah Charufah) "ve'Ish ki Yishkav es Ishah ... " - that the Bi'ah of a boy of nine is considered a Bi'ah (to obligate the Shifchah Charufah to receive Malkos).

(b) We answer Abaye, who asks from there on Rabah, who maintains that a Katan cannot father children - that this is a case of a child whose Bi'ah is a Bi'ah, even though his seed cannot fertilize.

(c) We compare this to crops - that have not yet grown a third, that grow yet they will not fertilize if they are re-sow them.

(a) Tana de'Bei Chizkiyah, who supports Rabah, learns from the Pasuk "ve'Chi Yazid Ish" (even though this has nothing to do with the context [a murderer) - that a man is able to sow and fertilize, but not boy (of over nine, who can sow but not fertilize).

(b) The Tana learns it from there - from the Lashon "ve'Chi Yazid" (which has connotations of 'cooking'), when the Torah could otherwise have written "ve'Chi Yarshi'a".

(c) We learn from the Pasuk "va'Yazed Ya'akov Nazid" - that "ve'Chi Yazid" means (cooking, or in this sense, sowing)

(a) We try and prove that a Katan can have children (like Rav Chisda) from Tana de'Bei Rebbi Yishmael, who Darshens (by ben Sorer u'Moreh) "ben", 've'Lo Av' - which, we think, can only mean that the woman became pregnant whilst the 'ben' was a Katan, and gave birth within three months of his having become a Gadol.

(b) Tana de'Bei Rebbi Yishmael cannot be referring to a case where the woman became pregnant after the boy turned bar-Mitzvah, and gave birth nine months later, due to a statement of Rebbi K'ruspeda'i, who said that a ben Sorer u'Moreh has only the first three months after he becomes a Gadol in which to be declared a ben Sorer u'Moreh.

(c) To answer the Kashya, Rav Dimi, quoting the B'nei Ma'arva, interprets 've'Lo Av' of Tana de'Bei Rebbi Yishmael, to mean - 've'Lo ha'Ra'uy Liheyos Av', meaning not one who could theoretically call himself a father (should he be married to a woman who becomes pregnant [because the woman's pregnancy is discernible after three months]).

(d) Rav Chisda (who holds that a Katan can father children) will explain "ben", 've'Lo Av' (according to the explanation that we rejected) - that the woman was pregnant already six months before he became a Gadol.

(a) We reconcile Rebbi K'ruspedai with our Mishnah, which gives the maximum time-limit for a ben Sorer u'Moreh as when the pubic hair surrounds the Gid - by accepting both time limits, whichever arrives first (usually [but not exclusively] the three-month limit would terminate first).

(b) Rebbi Shabsi said a seven-month pregnancy - is not discernible after two and a third months (a third of the time into the pregnancy), only after three (just like a nine-month one).

(c) The ramifications of this statement are - that if a woman married (illegally) within three months of her first husband's death (or of her divorce) and became pregnant within three months of her second marriage, we know that her first husband is definitely the child's father.

(d) Rebbi Ya'akov from Nehar Pakud quoting to Ravina, tries to support Rebbi Shabsi's statement from Rebbi K'ruspedai, in the name of Rav Huna B'rei de'Rav Yehoshua - by pointing out that, if the pregnancy would be discernible by two and a third months, the time-limit ought to be (not three months after the boy becomes a Gadol) but two and a third.

(a) Ravina refutes this proof however - because, he says, we go after the majority of women who give birth at nine months, and whose pregnancy shows at three months, based on the principle of ('Holchin Achar ha'Rov'). So most 'men' become fit to be fathers three months after their Bar-Mitzvah.

(b) Rav Huna B'rei de'Rav Yehoshua, based on the Pasuk "ve'Shaftu ha'Eidah, ve'Hitzilu ha'Eidah", objects to Ravina's refutation - on the grounds that we cannot go after the majority to sentence a ben Sorer u'Moreh to death on the basis of a 'Rov', seeing as it is a Mitzvah to save the defendant from the death-penalty.

(c) Ravina answers Rav Huna B'rei de'Rav Yehoshua's Kashya from the Mishnah in 'Hayu Bodkin' 'Echad Omer be'Sheini ba'Chodesh, ve'Echad Omer 'bi'Sheloshah ba'Chodesh, Eidusan Kayemes' - where we accept the testimony of the witnesses (to sentence the accused to death) on the basis of a 'Rov'. Otherwise, we ought to have perceived the testimony of the two witnesses as a discrepancy and thrown it out of court.

(d) Rebbi Yirmiyah from Difti supports Ravina from the Mishnah in Nidah (that we quoted in the previous Perek) 'bas Shalosh Shanim ... ve'Chayavin Alav Mishum Eishes Ish' - where we sentence an adulterer to death on the assumption that like, most women, the girl in question is not an Aylonis (because if she were, she would not be an Eishes Ish, and the adulterer would not be Chayav Miysah).

(a) We reject the suggestion that 'Chayav' refers to ...
1. ... a Korban (if they transgressed be'Shogeg) on the grounds - that the Tana specifically states 'Mumsin al-Yadah'.
2. ... where her father committed incest with her (which is not subject to the validity of Kidushin) on the grounds - that the Tana specifically states 'Im Ba Alehah Echad mi'Kol ha'Arayos'.
(b) We finally refute Rebbi Yirmiyah from Difti's support for Ravina from this Mishnah - by establishing the Mishnah when the father explicitly accepted the Kidushin even in the event that she turns out to be an Aylonis.



(a) The Beraisa cites a Machlokes Tana'im in the case of 'ha'Mesuleles bi'Venah Katan ve'He'erah Bah'. 'Ha'ara'ah is the first stage of Bi'ah (though its exact definition is subject to a Machlokes). 'ha'Mesuleles bi'Venah Katan' - means that the woman was playing indecently with her son.

(b) According to Beis Shamai in the Beraisa, this disqualifies her from the Kehunah - because she is a Zonah. She is not Chayav Miysah - because the Tana is speaking when there are no witnesses.

(c) Beis Hillel validate her however. According to Rav Chisda (or Ze'iri), Beis Shamai and Beis Hillel are arguing over - a boy of eight, but as far as a boy of nine is concerned, Beis Hillel will agree with Beis Shamai, that his Bi'ah is considered a Bi'ah (as we learned on the previous Amud).

(d) The basis of their Machlokes is - whether we learn from the earlier generations (Beis Shamai), or whether we say that the nature of people changed (Beis Hillel).

(a) Bas-Sheva was the daughter of Eli'am, whose father was - Achitofel.

(b) The Pasuk in Tehilim assures us that men of bloodshed and trickery will not live half their life-span. That is why ...

1. ... Do'eg ha'Adomi died at - thirty-four ...
2. ... Achitofel, at - thirty-three.
(c) Avshalom ...
1. ... killed his half-brother, Amnon - two years after Shlomoh was born.
2. ... return to Yerushalayim from his exile - three years after that.
(d) He remained in Yerushalayim without seeing his father - for two years.
(a) That is when Avshalom's rebellion began. And that was when - Achitofel committed suicide because his advice was not accepted.

(b) We initially prove from here that they would have children at the age of eight in those days - because if we deduct the seven years of Shlomoh from the thirty-three of Achitofel (his great-grandfather), that leaves twenty-six years for the three births (Eli'am, bas-Sheva and Shlomoh). And if we allow two years for the combined pregnancies (seven months plus one month for the respective mothers month-long period of Tum'ah and Taharah), that will mean that Achitofel, Eli'am and bas-Sheva were each eight years old when their babies were born.

(c) We repudiate this proof - on the grounds that on the assumption that girls were able to have children at an earlier age than boys, bas-Sheva may have given birth to Shlomoh when she was six, in which case Achitofel and Eli'am were both nine at the birth of birth of their respective children.

(d) We prove that in any event, bas-Sheva must have given birth before the age of eight because even if all three gave birth at eight, the Pasuk already recorded earliers that bas-Sheva had a child who died within a few days of birth.

(a) Avram and Nachor married the daughters of their brother, Haran, Yiskah and Milkah respectively. 'Yiskah' was better-known as Sarah.

(b) She may have been called by that name, says Rebbi Yitzchak, because 'she saw with the Divine Spirit' - which explains why Hashem once told Avraham to listen to whatever she said.

(c) Alternatively, says Rebbi Yitzchak, she was called 'Yiskah' - because everyone would gaze at her beauty.

(d) The age gap between ...

1. ... Avraham and Sarah was - ten years (as the Torah specifically writes in Vayeira).
2. ... Avraham and Haran (assuming that the three brothers were born in the order that the Torah records them 'Avraham, Nachor and Haran') was - two years (one year between each brother). In that case, Haran must have been eight when Sarah was born.
(a) We repudiate the proof from here that a man could father a child at the age of eight in biblical times - by ascribing the order of the three brothers (not according to age), but according to wisdom (see Tosfos DH 'Ela'), in which case Avraham may have been younger than Haran (so Haran could have been more than eight when Sarah was born).

(b) And we prove the concept of the Pasuk going after wisdom, from the sons of No'ach. The problem with the Pasuk "Shem ben Me'as Shanah va'Yoled es Arpachshad Shenasayim Achar ha'Mabul" is - that assuming that Noach's sons were born in the order that they are recorded in the Torah (Shem, Cham and Yafes), and based on the Pasuk that No'ach had his first son when he was five hundred (and the flood began when he was six hundred), when Shem bore Arpachshad, two years after the Flood, he would have been a hundred and two, and not a hundred.

(c) So we prove from this Pasuk - that sometimes, the Torah lists people (not according to their age, but) according to their wisdom.

(d) When Rav Kahana repeated the above to Rav Z'vid from Neherda'a - he replied that *he* proved that Shem was not the oldest - from the Pasuk "Achi Yefes ha'Gadol".

(a) At the episode with the spies - Kalev was forty.

(b) He was ...

1. ... the husband of Efrat (better known as Miriam).
2. ... Chur's - father.
(c) Chur was Betzalel's grandfather.

(d) When Betzalel built the Mishkan (a year before the spies were sent) - he was thirteen.

(a) We ultimately prove from here that men were able to father children at the age of eight in those days - because, if Betzalel was fourteen (when they sent the Spies) when his great-grandfather Kalev was forty, it means that Kalev was twenty-six when he was born. If we deduct two years for the three pregnancies (Chur, Uri and Betzalel), that means that each of the three men was eight when his son was born.

(b) We learned in our Mishnah "Ben", 've'Lo Bas'. Rebbi Shimon in a Beraisa comments on this - that really it would be most appropriate to have a bas Sorer u'Moreh, because if a girl eats and drinks in the same way as a ben Sorer u'Moreh, she too will stand by the crossroadsluring people to sin. Only the Torah precludes her.

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