POINT BY POINT SUMMARY
Prepared by Rabbi P. Feldman
of Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Yerushalayim
Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
Ask A Question on the daf
Previous daf Sanhedrin 69
1) THE AGE OF "BEN SORER U'MOREH"
(a) Question (Abaye - Beraisa): "Ish (that will have
relations with a Shifchah Charufah (a semi-married slave)
in a way fitting to eject semen)" - one might have
thought, this only applies to an Ish;
2) FOLLOWING THE MAJORITY
1. Question: How do we know to include a nine year-old
boy, who is fitting to have relations?
(b) Answer (Rabah): A nine year-old is fit to have relations
(with semen), but it will not lead to a child, just like
grain less than a third grown (it has seeds, but they
will not sprout).
2. Answer: "*V*'Ish".
(c) (D'vei Chizkiyah): "V'Chi Yazid Ish" - an Ish 'cooks' his
seed (making it fitting to produce a child) before
ejecting it, a minor does not.
(d) Question (Rav Mordechai): How do we know that 'Mezid'
(e) Answer (Rav Ashi): "Va'Yazed Yakov Nazid".
(f) Question (Beraisa - Tana d'vei R. Yishmael): "Ben" - not
1. Question: What is the case (that the Torah must
exclude a father from becoming a Ben Sorer u'Moreh)?
(g) Answer (and Answer #2 to Question (1)): Really, he
impregnated her after he became an adult, she gave birth
after his beard filled out.
i. Suggestion: He impregnated his wife (or any
woman) after he became an adult, she gave birth
before his (lower) beard filled out.
2. Answer: We must say, he impregnated her (more than
three months) before he was an adult, she gave birth
before his beard filled out - this proves that a
minor can father children!
ii. Rejection: R. Kruspedai taught, a boy is fit to
become a Ben Sorer u'Moreh during only (the
first) three months (of his adulthood -
pregnancy is always more than six months)!
(h) Question: But the birth must be more than six months into
his adulthood, Ben Sorer u'Moreh only applies during the
first three months!
(i) Answer (Rav Dimi): Tana d'vei R. Yishmael teaches that he
cannot become a Ben Sorer u'Moreh once he is *fitting to
be called* a father (i.e. his wife could be visibly
pregnant, i.e. three months after he became an adult).
(j) (R. Kruspedai): A boy is fit to become a Ben Sorer
u'Moreh during only three months.
(k) Question (Mishnah): A boy can become a Ben Sorer u'Moreh
from the time he brings two hairs until his beard fills
(l) Answer: He cannot become a Ben Sorer u'Moreh once his
beard fills out *or* after three months into his
(a) (R. Yakov of Nehar Pekod citing Rav Huna brei d'Rav
Yehoshua): We learn from R. Kruspedai that if a woman
will give birth after seven months, she will not be
recognizably pregnant (like most women are) after a third
of the pregnancy;
1. If she would be, a boy would be too old to be a Ben
Sorer u'Moreh two and a third months after becoming
an adult (for he could be called a father)!
(b) Rejection (Ravina): Perhaps she is recognizably pregnant
after a third, but the law of Ben Sorer u'Moreh is based
on the majority (most babies are born after nine months).
(c) (Rav Huna brei d'Rav Yehoshua (after he heard this)): We
do not follow the majority in capital cases - "V'Shaftu
ha'Edah v'Hatzilu ha'Edah", if we can find a reason to
exempt (e.g. he could be called a father), we do!
(d) Rejection #1 (Ravina): We do follow the majority!
1. (Mishnah): If one witness says 'It was the second of
the month', the other says 'It was the third', their
testimony stands - we assume that the first heard
that the month was Me'ubar, and the latter did not
(therefore, he thought it was the third).
(e) Rejection #2 (R. Yirmeyah mi'Difti - Mishnah): The
following apply to a girl above three years:
i. If we would not follow the majority (most
people sometimes err about which day was Rosh
Chodesh), we would say that neither errs, they
refer to different days and the testimony is
1. She can become Mekudeshes through relations; if she
fell to Yibum and did Yibum, it takes effect;
2. Anyone (except her husband) is liable for her on
account of a married woman, one who has relations
with her (when she is Nidah) is Metamei a mattress
under him like a vessel above (and touching a Zav);
3. If she marries a Kohen, she may eat Terumah; if a
Pasul had relations with her, she is disqualified
4. If any of the Arayos had relations with her, he is
killed, she is exempt.
3) THE HALACHAH ONLY APPLIES TO BOYS
5. Why can we kill - we should be concerned that she is
an Ailonis, her husband never intended to Mekadesh
an Ailonis, her Kidushin is invalid!
(f) Rejection (of this rejection): No - one who has relations
with her is liable to bring a Korban on account of a
married woman (if he was Shogeg, but we would not rely on
the majority to kill him).
6. We must say that we follow the majority, most women
are not Ailoniyos!
1. Question: But it says, men are killed for (relations
(g) (Beraisa - Beis Shamai): If a woman was sporting with her
son and he did Ha'ara'ah, she is disqualified from
2. Answer: This refers to her father (he is liable
whether or not she is married).
3. Question: But it says that any of the Arayos are
killed on account of her!
4. Answer: The case is, her husband agreed to Mekadesh
her even if she is an Ailonis.
1. Beis Hillel say, she is permitted.
(h) (Rav Chisda): All agree that relations of a nine year-old
boy are considered relations; if he is less than eight,
they are not considered relations;
1. They argue about a boy between eight and nine - Beis
Shamai learn from previous generations (an eight
year-old could father a child), Beis Hillel do not.
(i) Question: What is the source that an eight year-old could
father a child?
(j) Answer #1: We learn from the ancestry of Shlomo:
1. Shlomo was seven years old when Achitofel (his great
(k) Rejection: Perhaps the generations were not evenly
spaced, rather, Bas Sheva was six when she became
pregnant with Shlomo, her grandfather and father were
each nine when they fathered (her father and Bas Sheva);
2. (Beraisa): "Anshei Damim u'Mirmah Lo Yechetzu
Yemeihem" (to live even 35 years, half a normal
lifetime) - Do'eg lived 34 years, Achitofel lived
3. Shlomo was born when Achitofel was 26 - if we assume
that each of the three generations was eight and
two-thirds years apart, and allow about eight months
for each pregnancy, each generation fathered the
next at (about) the age of eight!
1. Women are healthier than men, they are able to have
(l) Answer #1: We learn from the birth of Sarah.
2. Support: Bas Sheva had a child (i.e. the one that
died) even before Shlomo.
1. "Terach Holid Es Avraham Es Nachor v'Es Haran" -
allowing a year between each, Avraham was two years
older than Haran;
(m) Rejection: Perhaps Avraham was younger than Haran, the
Torah lists them in order of Chachmah.
2. (R. Yitzchak): Avraham's wife Yiskah is Sarah - she
is called Yiskah because she was Socheh (saw) with
Ru'ach ha'Kodesh - "Kol Asher Tomar Elecha Sarah
i. Also, she is called Yiskah because everyone
used to look at her beauty.
3. "...Hal'Ven Me'ah...Sarah ha'Vas Tish'im" - Avraham
was 10 years older than Sarah, he was two years
older than her father, i.e. Haran was eight when she
(n) Support: The Torah lists No'ach's children in order of
1. "No'ach (was 500 years old) va'Yoled No'ach Es Shem
Es Cham v'Es Yafes";
(o) Answer #3: We learn from the ancestry of Betzalel:
2. The flood came 100 years later (No'ach was 600), and
"Shem Ben Me'as Shanah...Shenasayim Achar ha'Mabul".
3. If Shem was the firstborn, he should have been 102!
4. Rather, we must say that the Torah lists them in
order of Chachmah.
1. Betzalel was (at least) 13 when he made the Mishkan
for it says "Ish Ish mi'Melachto";
2. The Mishkan was made in the first year (that we left
Miztrayim), in the second year it was erected and
the Meraglim were sent;
3. Kalev, the great grandfather of Betzalel, was 40
when he went with the Meraglim, i.e. he was 26 when
Betzalel was born.
4. The generations were (on the average) eight and
two-thirds years apart - allowing eight months for
each pregnancy, each generation fathered the next at
eight years! (All were men - even if they were not
evenly spaced, at least one of them fathered a son
wen he was no more than eight.)
(a) (Mishnah): A son, not a daughter.
(b) (Beraisa - R. Shimon): The Parshah of Ben Sorer u'Moreh
should also apply to a girl - if she gets addicted to
meat and wine, she will become a harlot to support her
1. The Torah decreed that it only applies to boys.