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Pesachim 84

PESACHIM 84 (Cheshvan 19) - dedicated anonymously in memory of Chaim Mordechai ben Harav Yisrael Azriel (Feldman) of Milwaukee.


OPINIONS: The Gemara explains that we see from the Mishnah that any part of the animal that hardens as the animal matures, but could be eaten by being boiled well, is considered meat (Basar) of the Korban Pesach and one can fulfill his obligation to eat the Korban Pesach by being allocated those parts.

The Beraisa states that soft sinews (Gidin) are also considered Basar. On the other hand, we know that the sinews of the neck are not considered Basar (Rav's statement, on 83b).

We see, then, that there are two different types of Gidin -- one type which the Beraisa permits as Basar, and another type which is not considered Basar.

The Gemara then brings an argument between Rebbi Yochanan and Reish Lakish concerning sinews which are soft now but will become hard later ("Gidin she'Sofan l'Hakshos"). To which sinews does this refer? If it is referring to the sinews of the neck, everyone agrees that they are not Basar! If it is referring to the soft sinews, everyone agrees that they *are* Basar, as the Beraisa itself states; even if those soft sinews are going to become hard, they are permitted since they can be cooked and softened. Where, then, does the argument between Rebbi Yochanan and Reish Lakish apply?

(a) RASHI explains that the argument involves the sinews of the neck. Even though Rav said that they are *not* considered Basar, Rebbi Yochanan apparently argues with Rav and says that they are considered Basar. He apparently holds that although they are hard, since they could be softened through boiling they are considered Basar -- just like the ligaments mentioned in our Mishnah. Why does Reish Lakish (and Rav) argue that they are not considered meat, if they can be softened through cooking (as the Gemara makes clear)? Apparently, they hold that cooking the sinews of the neck will not soften them *sufficiently*, and thus they are not comparable to the Gidin mentioned in the Beraisa which may be completely softened through cooking.

(b) TOSFOS, citing the RI (DH Gidin and DH Ho'il), explains that Reish Lakish and Rebbi Yochanan argue over a third type of Gidin, the Gidin of the spinal column. He suggests that these Gidin -- although they can be softened by being cooked -- are still not considered Basar according to Reish Lakish, because they do not *taste* at all like meat. In this respect, they are not similar to the cartilage mentioned in the Mishnah, which not only can be softened by cooking after it hardens, but it also has the taste of meat.

Alternatively, Tosfos suggests that these Gidin become hard even while the animal is *young*. Therefore, the fact that they could be cooked and made soft cannot make them into "meat." The cartilage mentioned in the Mishnah, on the other hand, only hardens after the animal gets older.

Both types of Gidin, according to both explanations, differ from the sinews of the neck, which are hard from the start, Tosfos asserts, and are therefore not considered to be meat according to anyone, even if they can be softened by cooking.


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