THOUGHTS ON THE DAILY DAF
brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Har Nof
Rosh Kollel: Rav Mordecai Kornfeld
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1) A CHAMETZ MINCHAH THAT WAS TAKEN OUT OF THE AZARAH
QUESTION: Rav Papa asks what the Halachah is in a case of a Minchah that
became Chametz, was then taken out of the Azarah ("Yotzei"), and then a
person continued to make it Chametz. Perhaps one is not Chayav for the
second act of making it Chametz, since it became Pasul by being taken out of
the Azarah. On the other hand, perhaps since it was already Pasul because it
was Chametz, it did not become Pasul due to Yotzei when it left the Azarah,
and one is Chayav for the second act of making it Chametz.
RASHI explains that the reason the Minchah would not become Pasul because of
Yotzei is because since it is Chametz, it does not have a full Kedushah, and
the Pesul of Yotzei does not take effect on something that does not have a
full Kedushah. The Gemara's question is whether a Minchah that is Pasul
because of Chametz can become Pasul because of Yotzei.
The TUREI EVEN (Hashmatos to Chagigah 9a) questions Rashi's explanation from
a Gemara in Zevachim (99a). The Gemara there suggests a possibility that
only a Kohen who is fit to perform the Avodah in the Beis ha'Mikdash may
receive a share of the meat of a Korban. Nevertheless, the Torah makes an
exception for a Ba'al Mum, teaching that he receives a share of the Korbanos
even though he is not fit to perform the Avodah. A Kohen who is Tamei,
though, who is not fit to perform the Avodah will not receive a share of the
Korbanos. The Gemara there says that a Kohen who was a Ba'al Mum who became
Tamei *does* receive a share of the Korbanos. Since he received a share
while he was not fit to perform the Avodah because he was a Ba'al Mum, he
continues to receive a share once he becomes Tamei as well, since his status
did not change.
Why does the Gemara here not apply the same logic? The Torah teaches that
the Isur of Chametz applies to the Minchah even though it already became
Pasul as Chametz. Consequently, it should not make a difference that the
Minchah becomes Pasul because of Yotzei, since that second Pesul does not
change its status. The Isur of making it Chametz should still apply!
The Gemara in Zevachim also poses a question according to the RAMBAM's
understanding of the Gemara here (as understood by the the MEKOR BARUCH
1:14). The Rambam (Hilchos Ma'aseh ha'Korbanos 12:12) describes Rav Papa's
case as a Minchah of Chametz that "went out [of the Azarah] and then
returned, and was made into Chametz after it become Pasul by being brought
out." It is clear that the Rambam understands that the Pesul of Yotzei takes
effect, even though the Minchah was already Pasul because of Chametz.
According to the Rambam's understanding, Rav Papa's question is as follows.
The Torah teaches that when a Minchah is Pasul because of Chametz, there is
still an Isur to make it Chametz further (as we learned on 57a). Since there
is a Gezeiras ha'Kasuv that the Isur of making the Minchah become Chametz
applies even when the Minchah is already Pasul due to Chametz, do we also
say that the Isur will apply even when the Minchah is Pasul because of an
additional Pesul, such as Yotzei? If the Isur applies when the Minchah is
Pasul because of one Pesul, then perhaps it should apply regardless of how
many Pesulim there are, since once the Minchah is Pasul it cannot become
The Gemara here is left with a doubt about whether or not we apply this
logic. Why, though, is there a doubt? The Gemara in Zevachim clearly does
apply this logic!
ANSWER: The KOVETZ HE'OROS (37:4) answers as follows. There is a difference
between what is needed in order for the Isur of being Mechametz a Minchah to
apply, and what is needed in order for a Kohen to receive a share in the
Korbanos. In order for the Isur of Mechametz to apply, the Minchah must be
an entirely valid Minchah (except for a pre-existing Pesul of Chametz, in
which case the Gezeiras ha'Kasuv teaches that the Isur of Mechametz still
applies). When a Minchah that is Pasul because of Chametz is taken out of
the Azarah, that act of Yotzei does not cause the Minchah to become Pasul,
since it is already Pasul. However, the Minchah certainly is not a valid
Minchah, because even without the Pesul of Chametz, the fact is that the
Minchah was taken out of the Azarah. Therefore, perhaps the Isur of
Mechametz does not apply, since -- even if we ignore the pre-existing Pesul
of Chametz -- the Minchah is not a valid Minchah due to Yotzei. On the other
hand, perhaps indeed an additional Pesul does not make a difference and the
Isur of Mechametz still applies.
A Kohen's entitlement to receive a share in the Korbanos is different. A
Kohen is entitled to receive a share in the Korbanos by virtue of the fact
that he is a Kohen. He does not need to have a special status of being a
"valid" Kohen. As long as he is not Pasul, he receives a share, since there
is no Pesul taking that right away from him. A Ba'al Mum does not lose his
share in the Korbanos, because the Torah teaches that the Pesul of Ba'al Mum
does not take away his right to a share in the Korbanos. Consequently, when
a Kohen who is a Ba'al Mum becomes Tamei as well, he does not lose his right
to a share in the Korbanos, since his Tum'ah did not make him unfit to
perform the Avodah; he was already unfit because of his state of a Ba'al
The TUREI EVEN adds another case in which the logic of our Gemara may apply.
The Mishnah in Chagigah (9a) teaches that a Korban Chagigah that was not
brought on the first day of Yom Tov may be brought on any of the following
six days as Tashlumin for the first day (according to the opinion of Rebbi
Yochanan there). Consequently, if a person was Patur from bringing a Korban
Chagigah on the first day (for example, he was lame in one leg), he has no
obligation to make it up on the subsequent days if his condition changes.
The exception to this is one who is Patur on the first day because he is
Tamei, who nevertheless is required to bring the Korban Chagigah on one of
the other days as Tashlumin if he becomes Tahor. What is the Halachah in a
case in which one was Tamei on the first day of Yom Tov, and he also became
lame? Do we say that since, originally, there was a requirement of Tashlumin
when he was Patur on the first day because of Tum'ah, that requirement of
Tashlumin remains even though he became lame?
The Turei Even infers from Rashi in our Sugya that there is no such logic.
Only in our Sugya, where the Pesul of Yotzei does not take effect because
the Kedushah of the Minchah was not complete, do we say that the Isur of
Mechametz remains. In the case of Tashlumin for the Korban Chagigah, where
the person was definitely Patur because he became lame, the Halachah is that
he has no requirement of Tashlumin.
The Turei Even, however, is left with a difficulty from the Gemara in
Zevachim, which implies that we should apply the logic that once the person
was Patur because of Tum'ah, the Petur of becoming lame does not affect him,
and the requirement of Tashlumin should remain.
The Kovetz He'oros, however, based on his approach to the Gemara in
Zevachim, says that the Gemara in Zevachim does not contradict comparing the
case of Tashlumin of the Korban Chagigah to the case of our Gemara. For the
requirement of Tashlumin to apply, it is not enough for the person who
became lame to *not* have a Petur as a result of becoming lame (since he was
already Patur because he was Tamei). Rather, he must have had an actual
Chiyuv to bring the Korban Chagigah in order for the requirement of
Tashlumin to apply. Although he was Patur already because of Tum'ah,
becoming lame did cause him to not have a Chiyuv, and thus he has no
requirement of Tashlumin. (Mordechai Zvi Dicker)
2) HALACHAH: FLOUR KNEADED WITH WATER AND "MEI PEROS"
The Beraisa (57a) quotes Rebbi Yosi ha'Glili who learns from the words
"Asher Takrivu" (Vayikra 2:11) that the Minchas Nesachim is included in the
prohibition against making a Minchah become Chametz. Rebbi Akiva argues and
says that these words include the Lechem ha'Panim in the prohibition.
The Gemara asks that the Minchas Nesachim is not made from water, but from
Mei Peros (oil), and dough made from fruit juice does not become Chametz.
How, then, can Rebbi Yosi ha'Glili say that the Minchas Nesachim is included
in the Isur against causing a Minchah to become Chametz? Reish Lakish
answers that Rebbi Yosi ha'Glili is of the opinion that the Minchas Nesachim
may be kneaded with water as well as with oil, and thus it can become
The Gemara concludes, however, that the opinions in the Beraisa should be
switched, and that it is Rebbi Akiva who learns that the verse is including
the Minchas Nesachim in the Isur.
The NODA B'YEHUDAH (Mahadura Kama #22) derives from this Gemara an important
Halachah regarding Chametz Nuksheh (Chametz items that are not intended and
not fit for eating) on Pesach.
There is a dispute concerning whether or not Chametz Nuksheh has the same
status as Chametz Gamur (complete Chametz) with regard to the law of Bitul
on Pesach. The TERUMAS HA'DESHEN rules that Chametz Nuksheh has the same
status as Chametz Gamur with regard to the law of Bitul on Pesach. Just as a
minute amount of Chametz Gamur is Asur on Pesach and is not Batel even in a
large amount of non-Chametz food, so, too, a minute amount of Chametz
Nuksheh is Asur on Pesach and is not Batel.
The MAGEN AVRAHAM argues with the Terumas ha'Deshen. The Magen Avraham says
that the Terumas ha'Deshen is stringent only because he maintains that,
mid'Oraisa, Chametz Nuksheh is considered real Chametz (like Rebbi Meir on
53a). However, we rule that Chametz Nuksheh is Asur only mid'Rabanan (like
Rebbi Yehudah), and therefore it is Batel in a mixture with sixty times more
Based on the words of the Magen Avraham, some Poskim rule that if a piece of
wheat is found in a food made from flour mixed with water and Mei Peros, it
is Batel b'Shishim. This is based on the view of RABEINU TAM (see Insights
to 45a) who maintains that flour mixed with water and Mei Peros is Chametz
Nuksheh and not Chametz Gamur.
The Noda b'Yehudah strongly argues with this ruling, basing his argument on
the words of our Gemara. He asserts that Rabeinu Tam says that dough made
from water and Mei Peros is Chametz Nuksheh only according to the opinion of
Rebbi Meir, who maintains that Chametz Nuksheh is Asur mid'Oraisa. However,
according to Rebbi Yehudah who says that Chametz Nuksheh is Asur
mid'Rabanan, dough made from water and Mei Peros must be Chametz Gamur. He
proves this from our Gemara which says that the Isur of Mechametz will apply
to the Minchas Nesachim when the flour is mixed with water aside from the
oil of the Minchah. Obviously, the Isur d'Oraisa will apply only when the
Chametz that is produced is Chametz d'Oraisa. Accordingly, there are only
two possible reasons why mixing the Minchas Nesachim with water should cause
it to become Chametz d'Oraisa -- either the Halachah is like Rebbi Meir who
says that Chametz Nuksheh is considered Chametz d'Oraisa, or the Halachah is
like Rebbi Yehudah, and Rebbi Yehudah holds that dough made from flour mixed
with water and Mei Peros is not Chametz Nuksheh but Chametz Gamur. Since we
rule in accordance with the view of Rebbi Yehudah that Chametz Nuksheh is
considered Chametz only mid'Rabanan, it must be that flour mixed with water
and Mei Peros is Chametz Gamur, Chametz mid'Oraisa. (Rebbi Yehudah has no
verse to teach that there is an "intermediate" form of Chametz mid'Oraisa,
and thus there can be only Chametz Gamur or non-Chametz.)
Therefore, the Noda b'Yehudah rules that wheat found in a food made from
flour mixed with water and Mei Peros is *not* Batel b'Shishim. Since the
Halachah follows the view of Rebbi Yehudah who says that Chametz Nuksheh is
only Asur mid'Rabanan, it must be that dough made from water and Mei Peros
can become Chametz Gamur mid'Oraisa.
The Noda b'Yehudah, however, asks two questions on this conclusion. Rabeinu
Tam (in Tosfos to 54a) proves from the Gemara here that water together with
Mei Peros can become Chametz, and it is not like Mei Peros alone which
cannot become Chametz. Why, though, does Rabeinu Tam need to prove this from
our Gemara? He should prove this from the fact that any Minchah can become
Chametz! All of the Menachos are made with oil, and yet they can still
become Chametz, as we see from the fact that the Torah prohibits causing
them to become Chametz! It must be that flour kneaded with water and Mei
Peros (oil) can become Chametz!
Second, Rabeinu Tam's proof from our Gemara is difficult to understand.
Perhaps the reason why a Minchas Nesachim can become Chametz when kneaded
with water is because the water might touch the flour in a place where there
is no oil! In such a case the flour certainly becomes Chametz Gamur. How can
Rabeinu Tam prove from here that flour kneaded with water and Mei Peros
together can become Chametz?
The Noda b'Yehudah answers one question with the other question. The reason
why Rabeinu Tam does not prove from all other Menachos that dough made of
water and Mei Peros can become Chametz is because all other Menachos have
only a small amount of oil in them, and thus it can happen that some of the
flour has no oil mixed with it. When the water touches that flour, it will
become Chametz Gamur (and not because water mixed with Mei Peros can become
Chametz Gamur). Rabeinu Tam's proof is from the Minchas Nesachim, which has
a large amount of oil such that the oil certainly reaches all of the flour.
The only way that the Minchah can become Chametz Gamur, therefore, is if
water together with Mei Peros can become Chametz Gamur. (Mordechai Zvi