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Kidushin 67

KIDUSHIN 67 (Tamuz 22) - dedicated by Zvi and Tamara Sand of Har Nof, Yerushalayim, for the Yahrzeit of Tamara's father, Shlomo Zevulun ben Yakov Tzvi Ben-David.


(a) Rebbi Yossi rules in a Beraisa that the child of a Ger who marries a Mamzeres is a Mamzer.
Does the Torah permit such a union according to Rebbi Yossi?

(b) When Resh Lakish queried this Beraisa from the principle in our Mishnah 'Kol Makom she'Yesh Kidushin ve'Ein Aveirah, ha'V'lad Holech Achar ha'Zachar', Rebbi Yochanan replied that the author of our Mishnah is Rebbi Yehudah.
What does Rebbi Yehudah say?

(c) Then why does the Tana of our Mishnah not include it in the list of 'Kol Makom she'Yesh Kidushin ve'Yesh Aveirah ha'V'lad Holech Achar ha'Pagum'?

(d) In an alternative answer, Rebbi Yochanan even reconciles Rebbi Yossi with our Mishnah.
How does he do that?

(a) Seeing as 've'Eizo Zu' in our Mishnah precludes all other cases not mentioned in our Mishnah (or so we currently think), how will we explain the omission of a Chalal who married a bas Yisrael (about whom the Tana will later rule 'bas Chalal Zachar Pesulah li'Kehunah')?

(b) What is the status of the child of a Yisrael who married a Chalalah (whose union the Torah permits)? After whom does he go?

(c) Then why does the Tana not insert it?

(d) Why does the Tana not insert it explicitly?

(a) According to Rabah bar bar Chanah Amar Rebbi Yochanan, the child of a Mitzri Sheini who marries a Mitzris Rishonah goes after the father.
Then how will we explain the D'rashah in Ki Seitzei "Asher Yavo Lahem" ('Lahem Halach Achar Pesulan')?

(b) What Rav Dimi hold?

(c) According to Rabah bar bar Chanah, why does the Tana not insert this case in the Mishnah?

(d) And how will we reconcile Rav Dimi with the Klal in our Mishnah 'Kol Makom she'Yesh Kidushin ve'Ein Aveirah, ha'V'lad Holech Achar ha'Zachar'?

(a) What did Ravin Amar Rebbi Yochanan say about a Nochri couple where the man and the woman have different nationalities? What do we consider the children that they bore ...
  1. ... before they converted?
  2. ... after they converted?
(b) How do we reconcile this latter statement with the principle 'Kol she'Yesh Kidushin ve'Ein Aveirah, Halach Achar ha'Zachar'?

(c) Why can we not ask why Ravin's first statement is not inserted in the Reisha?

(a) According to both Rebbi Yehudah (who holds that a Ger is forbidden to marry a Mamzeres) and Rebbi Yossi (who permits it), 'Kol Makom' in the Reishah comes to include Yisrael she'Nasa Chalalah and perhaps Mitzri Sheini she'Nasa Mitzris Rishonah (like Rabah bar bar Chanah); and 've'Eizo Zo' comes to preclude 'Nisgayru, Halach Achar ha'Pagum' (Ravin) and possibly Mitzri Sheini she'Nasa Mitzris Rishonah (like Rav Dimi).
On whom do ask 'Kol Makom de'Seifa li'Me'utei Mai'?

(b) How do we counter this from the Seifa de'Seifa 've'Eizo Zu'?

(c) So how do we answer the Seifa de'Seifa, and subsequently the Reisha de'Seifa?

Answers to questions



(a) Re. the K'lal of Rabah bar bar Chanah that we cited earlier 'be'Umos Halach Achar ha'Zachar', what does the Tana of the Beraisa learn from the Pasuk in Behar ...
  1. ... "ve'Gam mi'B'nei ha'Toshavim ha'Garim Imachem Mehem Tiknu" (bearing in mind the Pasuk in Shoftim [Devarim] written in connection with the Cana'anim in general "Lo Sechayeh Kol Neshamah")?
  2. ... Asher Holidu be'Artzechem"?
(b) What does 'Cana'anim' in this context incorporate?

(c) What does "Asher Holidu be'Artzechem" *'ve'Lo min ha'Garim Artzechem'* mean? To whom does this refer?

(d) 'Nisgayru, Halach Achar ha'Pagum she'bi'Sheneihem'. Until now, we have been talking about the Din of retaining the children of Cana'anim as Avadim.
What are we talking about now?

(a) Why can the latter Halachah not be referring to the children of a Mitzri who married an Amonis?

(b) Then to whom does he refer?

(c) What stringency does ...

  1. ... the Amoni have over the Mitzris?
  2. ... the Mitzris have over the Amoni?
(a) What do we learn ...
  1. ... initially from the Pasuk in Ki Seitzei "ve'Yatz'ah mi'Beiso ve'Halchah *le'Ish Acher*"?
  2. ... from the Pasuk there "Lo Yikach Ish ... ve'Yigaleh K'naf Aviv ... Lo Yavo Mamzer"?
(b) We suggest that perhaps "le'Ish Acher" comes to preclude her husband's son (but nobody else). How do we refute the counter-argument that we already have the Pasuk "Lo Yikach Ish es Eishes Aviv"? How will we then interpret "Lo Yikach ... "?

(c) We reject this suggestion on the basis of the Pasuk in Acharei-Mos "ve'Ishah el Achosah Lo Sikach". What is the Kashya from there?

(d) So how do we establish the two Pesukim (" ... Lo Sikach" and " ... le'Ish Acher")?

(a) What problem do we have in learning from Achos Ishah that Kidushin is not effective ...
  1. ... by Eishes Ach?
  2. ... by Eishes Ish?
(b) How does Rebbi Yonah (or Rav Huna Brei de'Rav Yehoshua) ultimately learn that Kidushin are not effective by all the Arayos from Achos Ishto?

(c) On what basis do we establish the source for all Chayvei K'riysus as Achos Ishto (by whom Kidushin do not take effect and whose union produces Mamzeirim), and not from Nidah (by whom Kidushin does take effect and whose union does not produce Mamzeirim)?

Answers to questions

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