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Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld

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Kidushin 72

KIDUSHIN 72-75 - sponsored by a generous grant from an anonymous donor. Kollel Iyun Hadaf is indebted to him for his encouragement and support and prays that Hashem will repay him in kind.


(a) (Rav Papa): The argument over the boundaries of Bavel regarding lineage is just as the argument regarding divorce (a messenger to give a Get in Bavel need not testify that it was written and signed in front of him).
(b) (Rav Yosef): The argument is only regarding lineage, but by divorce, all agree that that Bavel extends until the second swamp of reeds of the bridge.
(c) (Rami bar Aba): The epitome of lineage of Bavel is Chavil Yama; Shunya and Guvya are the epitome of lineage of Chavil Yama.
(d) (Ravina): Tzitzora is also the epitome.
1. Support (Beraisa - Chanan ben Pinchas): The epitome of lineage of Bavel is Chavil Yama; Shunya, Guvya and Tzitzora are the epitome of Chavil Yama.
(e) (Rav Papa): But Kusim intermarried with them (so today, their lineage is problematic).
(f) Rejection: This is wrong - a Kusi requested to marry among them, but they refused.
(g) (Abaye): Between the rivers is as Pumbadisa (regarding lineage).
(h) (R, Ika bar Avin, citing R. Chananel): The Nihavand river is as Pumbadisa.
1. Abaye: We cannot rely on this - R. Ika is biased, a girl from there fell to him to Yibum.
2. R. Ika: I heard this from R. Chananel! (And this was confirmed.)
(i) (R. Aba bar Kahana): "(Sancheriv exiled Yisrael)...they rested in Chalach, Chavor, the Gozan river and the cities of Madai" - Chalach is Chalazon Nihavand.
1. (Shmuel): The cities of Madai are the metropolises of Mushchi, Huski; and Romki.
2. (R. Yochanan): All the places listed in the verse have bad lineage.
3. Question: But R, Chiya bar Avin cited Shmuel as saying that Mushchani is as Pumbadisa!
4. Answer: Mushchi and Mushchani are not the same.
(a) (Rav Yosef): "A second animal resembling a bear (in Nebuchadnetzar's dream)" - these are Persians, who resemble bears in their eating, drinking, obeseness, hairiness, and restlessness.
(b) Levi: Chachamim of Bavel resemble angels.
(c) As Rebbi was dying, he revealed certain cities in Bavel with lineage problems: one was full of converts from Amon (the men are forbidden to marry Benos Yisrael); another, was full of Mamzerim; one has brothers that swap wives (which makes Mamzerim);
1. Rebbi related - that very day, residents of a certain city were breaking Shabbos.
i. The ponds were filled with fish; the people were hunting them.
ii. R. Acha bar Yoshiyah excommunicated them; they became heretics.

2. Rebbi: Rav Ada bar Ahavah (in Bavel) will die today (another explanation - he is being circumcised today); Rav Yehudah will be born today in Bavel.
i. Rebbi was born the day R. Akiva died; Rav Yehudah was born the day Rebbi died; Rava was born the day Rav Yehudah died; Rav Ashi was born the day Rava died.
ii. "The sun shone the sun set" - before a Tzadik dies, a Tzadik like him is born.
iii. "The lamp of Hash-m did not yet go out; Shmuel was lying..." - Shmuel started to rise before Eli died.
(d) "As I prophecized that Platyahu ben Benayah died, I fell on my face and cried" - Rav and Shmuel argued if Yechezkeil considered him to be a Tzadik or Rasha.
1. The opinion that he was a Tzadik - because Nebuchadnetzar used to send some of his captives to his father-in-law in Meishan; he complained that he never received Yisraelim.
i. Platyahu counseled Nebuchadnetzar: we are distinguished, we should stay to serve you - you can send slaves to your father-in-law.
ii. (This was good for Yisrael, that we should not be slaves to slaves (of Nebuchadnetzar)) - Yechezkeil regretted that he died so young.
2. The opinion that he was a Rasha - "At the gate (of the Mikdash)...25 men, among them...Platyahu"; and it says "Twenty-five men, their backs to the Heichal, they were facing east".
i. Question: If they were facing east, we know that their backs were (to the Heichal) to the west!
ii. Answer: The verse teaches that they exposed themselves and excreted in front of Hash-m.
iii. Yechezkeil regretted that such a Rasha died peacefully on his bed.
3. Suggestion: Shmuel must hold that he was a Rasha.
i. (R, Chiya bar Avin citing Shmuel): Mushchani is as Pumbadisa; there is no concern that people of Meishan are slaves or Mamzerim; the only concern is Kohanim that married divorcees (so their children are Chalalim).
4. Rejection: Really, Shmuel can hold he was a Tzadik!
i. (Shmuel): "Any slave of a man" - does this exclude the slave of a woman?!
ii. Rather, it teaches that only a slave with a master over him is considered a slave - if a master makes his slave Hefker, the slave is free and does not need a Get of freedom. (The slaves sent to Meishan, surely their masters despaired, so the slaves became free, so there is no concern that people of Meishan are slaves).
(e) (Rav Yehudah): Only R. Meir holds that all lands are as dough compared to Eretz Yisrael; and Eretz Yisrael is as dough compared to Bavel - but Chachamim hold, all lands have a Chazakah of good lineage.
1. Ameimar allowed Rav Huna bar Noson to marry a girl from Mechuzaisa (a city outside of Bavel).
2. Rav Ashi: Are you relying on Rav Yehudah's teaching?
Rav Kahana, Rav Papa and Rav Zvid disagree! 3. Ameimar did not retract, for he had heard from Rav Zvid of Nehardai.
(a) (Beraisa - R. Yosi): In the future, Mamzerim and Nesinim will be permitted; R. Meir says, they will not.
1. R. Yosi: but it says, "I will throw Tahor water on you, and you will become Tehorim!"
2. R. Meir: That is a Taharah from Tumah and abominations, not from Mamzerus.
3. R. Yosi: "I will Metaher you" includes, even from Mamzerus.
(b) According to R. Meir, we understand "A Mamzer will dwell in Ashdod";
1. Question: This refutes R. Yosi!
2. Answer: He explains as Rav Yosef translates the verse - Beis Yisrael will dwell in the land, which they were estranged from as a Mamzer until now.
(c) (Rav Yehudah): The law is as R. Yosi.
(d) (Rav Yosef): Had Rav Yehudah not ruled as R. Yosi, Eliyahhu (in the future) would have separated many groups (of Mamzerim) from Yisrael.
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