POINT BY POINT SUMMARY
Prepared by Rabbi P. Feldman
of Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Yerushalayim
Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
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Previous daf Kidushin 72
KIDUSHIN 72-75 - sponsored by a generous grant from an anonymous
donor. Kollel Iyun Hadaf is indebted to him for his
encouragement and support and prays that Hashem will repay him
1) THE BOUNDARIES OF BAVEL
(a) (Rav Papa): The argument over the boundaries of Bavel
regarding lineage is just as the argument regarding
divorce (a messenger to give a Get in Bavel need not
testify that it was written and signed in front of him).
2) INSIGHTS OF CHACHAMIM
(b) (Rav Yosef): The argument is only regarding lineage, but
by divorce, all agree that that Bavel extends until the
second swamp of reeds of the bridge.
(c) (Rami bar Aba): The epitome of lineage of Bavel is Chavil
Yama; Shunya and Guvya are the epitome of lineage of
(d) (Ravina): Tzitzora is also the epitome.
1. Support (Beraisa - Chanan ben Pinchas): The epitome
of lineage of Bavel is Chavil Yama; Shunya, Guvya
and Tzitzora are the epitome of Chavil Yama.
(e) (Rav Papa): But Kusim intermarried with them (so today,
their lineage is problematic).
(f) Rejection: This is wrong - a Kusi requested to marry
among them, but they refused.
(g) (Abaye): Between the rivers is as Pumbadisa (regarding
(h) (R, Ika bar Avin, citing R. Chananel): The Nihavand river
is as Pumbadisa.
1. Abaye: We cannot rely on this - R. Ika is biased, a
girl from there fell to him to Yibum.
(i) (R. Aba bar Kahana): "(Sancheriv exiled Yisrael)...they
rested in Chalach, Chavor, the Gozan river and the cities
of Madai" - Chalach is Chalazon Nihavand.
2. R. Ika: I heard this from R. Chananel! (And this was
1. (Shmuel): The cities of Madai are the metropolises
of Mushchi, Huski; and Romki.
2. (R. Yochanan): All the places listed in the verse
have bad lineage.
3. Question: But R, Chiya bar Avin cited Shmuel as
saying that Mushchani is as Pumbadisa!
4. Answer: Mushchi and Mushchani are not the same.
(a) (Rav Yosef): "A second animal resembling a bear (in
Nebuchadnetzar's dream)" - these are Persians, who
resemble bears in their eating, drinking, obeseness,
hairiness, and restlessness.
(b) Levi: Chachamim of Bavel resemble angels.
(c) As Rebbi was dying, he revealed certain cities in Bavel
with lineage problems: one was full of converts from Amon
(the men are forbidden to marry Benos Yisrael); another,
was full of Mamzerim; one has brothers that swap wives
(which makes Mamzerim);
1. Rebbi related - that very day, residents of a
certain city were breaking Shabbos.
i. The ponds were filled with fish; the people
were hunting them.
ii. R. Acha bar Yoshiyah excommunicated them; they
3) MAMZERIM IN THE END OF DAYS
2. Rebbi: Rav Ada bar Ahavah (in Bavel) will die today
(another explanation - he is being circumcised
today); Rav Yehudah will be born today in Bavel.
(d) "As I prophecized that Platyahu ben Benayah died, I fell
on my face and cried" - Rav and Shmuel argued if
Yechezkeil considered him to be a Tzadik or Rasha.
i. Rebbi was born the day R. Akiva died; Rav
Yehudah was born the day Rebbi died; Rava was
born the day Rav Yehudah died; Rav Ashi was
born the day Rava died.
ii. "The sun shone the sun set" - before a Tzadik
dies, a Tzadik like him is born.
iii. "The lamp of Hash-m did not yet go out; Shmuel
was lying..." - Shmuel started to rise before
1. The opinion that he was a Tzadik - because
Nebuchadnetzar used to send some of his captives to
his father-in-law in Meishan; he complained that he
never received Yisraelim.
(e) (Rav Yehudah): Only R. Meir holds that all lands are as
dough compared to Eretz Yisrael; and Eretz Yisrael is as
dough compared to Bavel - but Chachamim hold, all lands
have a Chazakah of good lineage.
i. Platyahu counseled Nebuchadnetzar: we are
distinguished, we should stay to serve you -
you can send slaves to your father-in-law.
2. The opinion that he was a Rasha - "At the gate (of
the Mikdash)...25 men, among them...Platyahu"; and
it says "Twenty-five men, their backs to the
Heichal, they were facing east".
ii. (This was good for Yisrael, that we should not
be slaves to slaves (of Nebuchadnetzar)) -
Yechezkeil regretted that he died so young.
i. Question: If they were facing east, we know
that their backs were (to the Heichal) to the
3. Suggestion: Shmuel must hold that he was a Rasha.
ii. Answer: The verse teaches that they exposed
themselves and excreted in front of Hash-m.
iii. Yechezkeil regretted that such a Rasha died
peacefully on his bed.
i. (R, Chiya bar Avin citing Shmuel): Mushchani is
as Pumbadisa; there is no concern that people
of Meishan are slaves or Mamzerim; the only
concern is Kohanim that married divorcees (so
their children are Chalalim).
4. Rejection: Really, Shmuel can hold he was a Tzadik!
i. (Shmuel): "Any slave of a man" - does this
exclude the slave of a woman?!
ii. Rather, it teaches that only a slave with a
master over him is considered a slave - if a
master makes his slave Hefker, the slave is
free and does not need a Get of freedom. (The
slaves sent to Meishan, surely their masters
despaired, so the slaves became free, so there
is no concern that people of Meishan are
1. Ameimar allowed Rav Huna bar Noson to marry a girl
from Mechuzaisa (a city outside of Bavel).
2. Rav Ashi: Are you relying on Rav Yehudah's teaching?
Rav Kahana, Rav Papa and Rav Zvid disagree!
3. Ameimar did not retract, for he had heard from Rav
Zvid of Nehardai.
(a) (Beraisa - R. Yosi): In the future, Mamzerim and Nesinim
will be permitted; R. Meir says, they will not.
1. R. Yosi: but it says, "I will throw Tahor water on
you, and you will become Tehorim!"
(b) According to R. Meir, we understand "A Mamzer will dwell
2. R. Meir: That is a Taharah from Tumah and
abominations, not from Mamzerus.
3. R. Yosi: "I will Metaher you" includes, even from
1. Question: This refutes R. Yosi!
(c) (Rav Yehudah): The law is as R. Yosi.
2. Answer: He explains as Rav Yosef translates the
verse - Beis Yisrael will dwell in the land, which
they were estranged from as a Mamzer until now.
(d) (Rav Yosef): Had Rav Yehudah not ruled as R. Yosi,
Eliyahhu (in the future) would have separated many groups
(of Mamzerim) from Yisrael.