ANSWERS TO REVIEW QUESTIONS
prepared by Rabbi Eliezer Chrysler
Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Jerusalem
Previous daf Chulin 93
CHULIN 92-95 - Sponsored by a generous grant from an anonymous donor.
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(a) We query Rav Yehudah Amar Shmuel's statement permitting Cheilev that is
covered by Basar from another statement of Rav Yehudah Amar Shmuel, quoted
by Rebbi Aba. where he forbids the Cheilev under the loins (which is
actually the top section of the Cheilev which he just declared Mutar).
(b) Abaye reconciles this with the previous statement by pointing out that
'Beheimah be'Chayehah Piruki Mifreka' - by which he means that when the
animal walks, the loins move upwards (and the flanks downwards) so that, at
that point, they are not covering the Cheilev, which therefore falls under
the category of Cheilev that is not covered by Basar, and is Asur.
(c) As his source, he quotes Rebbi Yochanan, who - maintained that even
though he was neither a Shochet nor the son of a Shochet, he remembered that
this was what they said in the Beis-Hamedrash.
(a) Rebbi Aba Amar ... Shmuel also rules - that the Cheilev on the Meses and
the Beis ha'Kosos - is Asur and punishable by Kareis.
(b) The Torah refers to it as - the Cheilev which is on the Kerev.
(c) And he also says the same about the Cheilev on the 'K'libusta' (a small
bone above the hip-bone, which is joined to the vertibrae that form the
(d) ... which the Torah refers to as - Cheilev which is on the Kesalim.
(a) When Rebbi Aba ... Amar Shmuel further forbade the sinews in the
shoulders, Rav Safra objected on the grounds - that (they do not contain
Cheilev and) the Torah does not forbid meat.
(b) Rava however, upheld Rebbi Aba's ruling - because the Torah did not
permit blood either.
(c) Consequently - if one cuts and salts them, they are permitted.
(d) Rav Safra refers to Rebbi Aba as 'Moshe', as does Rava to Rav Safra.
'Moshe' means - Talmid-Chacham (see Mesores ha'Shas).
(a) The Shi'ur of an Amah regarding the beginning of the intestines that
Rav Yehudah Amar Shmuel gives - is the distance that is one is obligated to
scrape away all traces of Cheilev, from the point that they emerge from the
(b) This Cheilev is also known as 'Cheilev she'al ha'Dakin', which is
important to know - because it is the Cheilev over which Rebbi Yishmael and
Rebbi Akiva argue in Eilu T'reifos (see Gilyon ha'Shas).
(a) Rav Yehudah - declares Asur the sinews that branch out from the Ukatz
(part of the spinal cord where it becomes the tail-bone, also known as the
'Chuti de'Kafli' [thesinews of the flanks]).
(b) Three sinews branch out from the right (i.e. nearer the tail) - and two
from the left (nearer the head)?
(c) The three sinews eventually merge into two, and the two - into three.
(d) The ramifications of this statement are - that that is how many sinews
one needs to search for and dig out (as far down as the ribs at the foot of
the chest cavity) should this become necessary ...
(e) ... which it will not be - if one pulls them removes them whilst they
are still still hot, when all the sinews comes out intact.
(a) Abaye (or Rav Yehudah) lists - five sinews.
(b) The sinews of the spleen, the flanks and the kidneys are forbidden
because they contain Cheilev, and those in the shoulder and in the jaw -
because they contain blood.
(c) The difference between them is - that latter can be rectified (as we
just exlained), whereas the former cannot.
(d) Abaye does not include the blood-vessels in the neck (the jugular
veins) - because they are large, and Abaye lists only the small ones.
(a) Rav Kahana (or Rav Yehudah) lists - five membranes that are not Kasher.
(b) The distinction that he draws between those of the spleen, the flanks
and the kidneys on the one hand, and the Beitzim of a male and the brain on
the other is - that the former are Asur because of Cheilev, and the latter,
because of blood.
(a) When Rav Yehudah bar Oshaya, in the process of peeling a spleen Levi
b'rei de'Rav Huna bar Chiya, peeled only the thick part where it is joined
to the Keres and the Cheilev, the latter instructed him - to carry on
(b) When Levi's father came in and saw this, quoting Levi's maternal
grandfather (Rebbi Yirmiyah bar Aba), he commented -that only the membrane
that is on the thick part is forbidden.
(c) Levi refuted this however, on the basis of a statement by Rav Hamnuna,
who, quoted a Beraisa - forbidding the membrane that covers the spleen, but
rendering Patur (from Kares or a Chatas) whoever eats it.
(d) He cannot have been referring to the membrane that covers the thick part
of the spleen - because why would he then be Patur?
(e) Levi b'rei de'Rav Huna bar Chiya's father - had nothing to say except
'I Tanya, Tanya' (meaning that he cannot argue with a Beraisa).
(a) The Beraisa quoted by Rav Hamnuna rules that the membrane that covers
the kidney - is Asur, though one is not Chayav a Chatas for eating it
(b) The Beraisa 'Ein Chayavin Alav' is referring to - the Cheilev of both
the spleen and the kidneys.
(c) We reconcile this with the Beraisa which rules that one is Chayav for
1. ... the Cheilev of the spleen - by establishing the latter by the thick
part (as we explained earlier), and the former, by the remainder of the
2. ... the Cheilev of the kidneys - by establishing the latter with regard
to the actual Cheilev that covers the kidneys, and the former, with regard
to the membrane beneath it.
(a) Rav Ami and Rav Asi argue over Bei'i de'Chashilta - (the Beitzei Zachar
of an animal). One of them considers them 'Eiver min ha'Chai' (even though
the animal has been Shechted [see Tosfos DH 'mi'de'Lo ka'Baryan']), the
other one does not.
(b) The one considers them Eiver min ha'Chai, because once wounded, they do
not heal, the other does not - because they do not decompose.
(c) The ...
1. ... first opinion explains that they do not decompose - because they are
not exposed to the air.
(d) Despite the fact that Rebbi Yochanan conformed with the opinion that
permits them, he instructed Rav Sh'man bar Aba not to eat them - because
that was the Minhag of his home town (see Tosfos DH 'Mishum'), and the Pasuk
in Mishlei "ve'Al Titosh Toras Imecha" teaches us the prohibition of
contravening local Minhag.
2. ... second opinion explains that they do not heal - on account of their
(a) Mar bar Rav Ashi permitted the Beitzim of kid-goats without peeling off
the membrane, up to thirty days after their birth - because up to that time,
the little blood that has developed becomes absorbed inside the limbs.
(b) 'Kid-goats' - is La'av Davka. The ruling applies equally to lambs and
(c) The Beitzim remain permitted even after that - as long as they do not
contain Zera (semen).
(d) And this in turn, one can tell - if their are no red dots visible.
(a) Rav Acha and Ravina argue over 'Umtzi, Bei'i u'Mizreki' (raw meat,
Beitzei Zachar and the sinews of the shoulder) which will be discussed
shortly. Generally, the pattern is - that whenever these two Amora'im
dispute, Ravina is le'Kula, and we rule like him.
(b) In this case - *Rav Acha* is le'Kula, and we rule like *him*.
(c) We rule that a piece of raw meat which turned red ...
1. ... may be cooked as long as - it has been cut open and salted, and the
same applies to one which ...
2. ... they suspended over the fire on a spit-rod.
(a) Ravina and Rav Acha argue - over a case where they placed the raw meat
on burning coals. Rav Acha permits it, Ravina forbids it.
(b) Rav Acha explains that the heat of the coal draws out the blood, whereas
Ravina argues - that on the contrary, it causes the flesh to contract,
retaining the blood inside.
(c) And they argue over - exactly the same point in respect of 'Bei'i and
(a) We rule that the head of an animal that one places on top of ashes
(whilst removing the hair) is ...
1. ... permitted - if it is placed on the location of the Shechitah (to
allowing the blood to drain).
(b) If one places it on its nostrils - then it is permitted only if one
pierces a hole in them (allowing the blood to drain); otherwise not.
2. ... forbidden - if it is placed on its side, because then the blood
(c) We have already discussed the inner and the outer Gidin earlier. Rav
Yehudah Amar Shmuel rules that ...
1. ... the inner Gid, which he describes as being close to the bone - is
Asur and is subject to Kareis.
(d) We reconcile this with the Beraisa, which describes ...
2. ... the outer Gid, which, he says, is close to the flesh - is Asur, but
is not subject to Kareis (because it is only Asur mi'de'Rabbanan).
1. ... the inner Gid as being close to the flesh - by explaining that when
it reaches the Basar it actually enters it (like a key going into a lock
2. ... the outer Gid, as being close to the bone - by restricting that to
the top end of the Gid, where the thigh separates from the hip-bone.
(a) Rav Yehudah gives the Shi'ur Chashivus of Cheilev that one discovers
after the Shochet (who used to be responsible for the Nikur [porging] as
well) has declared it Kasher, as the size of a barley (ki'Se'orah).
According to Rebbi Yochanan - it is a k'Zayis.
(b) Rav Papa reconciles the two opinions - by establishing Rav Yehudah with
regard to removing the Shochet from his Shechitah post, and Rebbi Yochanan
with regard to giving him Malkos.
(c) Mar Zutra establishes Rav Yehudah - where the Cheilev is found in one
location, and Rebbi Yochanan, where it is found in a two or three of
locations (for which he would not be penalized if this occurred with a
Shi'ur of a 'ki'Se'orah)
(d) The Halachah is - like Rav Yehudah.
(a) When Rav Nachman, objecting to Rebbi Chiya bar Rabah Amar Rebbi
Yochanan's statement (regarding Rebbi Meir in our Mishnah 'Ein Ne'emanim
Lomar ... ') 'Chazru Lomar Ne'emanim', he asked 'Achshar Dara', he meant -
that if initially, they ruled like Rebbi Meir, who did not believe the
Shochtim regarding the removal of the Gid, why would they later permit it,
seeing as the generations hardly became more reliable.
(b) We refute Rav Nachman's objection however - by ascribing the original
ruling to the fact that we initially followed the opinion of Rebbi Meir, who
requires the complete removal of the entire Gid (which is a very difficult
operation), and the revised ruling to the fact that we changed our minds to
rule like Rebbi Yehudah, who only requires the removal of what is visible
(as we learned earlier).
(c) Others learn Rebbi Chiya bar Aba's statement with regard to the
Chachamim, who say 'Ne'emanim Alav ... ', in which case Rebbi Chiya bar Aba
Amar Rebbi Yochanan said 'Chazru Lomar Ein Ne'emanim'.
(d) Bearing in mind our original Kashya 'Achshar Dara?', we ascribe Rav
Nachman's ruling (that nowadays, we hold 'Ne'emanim') - to the fact that we
rule strictly like Rebbi Meir, whereas originally, when they changed to 'Ein
Ne'emanim', it was (not because they were less trustworthy, but) because
they still recalled the first ruling, like Rebbi Yehudah, to whose opinion
some Shochtim continued subscribing. And it was only they had forgotten
about Rebbi Yehudah, that Rav Nachman ruled 'Ne'emanim'.
(a) In our Mishnah, the Chachamim rule 'Ne'emanim Alav ve'al ha'Cheilev'. We
answer the Kashya 'Cheilev Ma'an Dakar Sh'meih' - by adding 'Cheilev' to
Rebbi Meir's statement, which now reads 'Ne'emanim Alav ve'al ha'Cheilev'.
(b) The problem with selling a complete thigh to a Nochri might be - that
the Nochri can re-sell it to a Yisrael, who, unaware that it still contains
the Gid ha'Nasheh, will innocently eat it.
(c) Our Mishnah nevertheless permits it - because it is easy to see that it
has not been removed.