ANSWERS TO REVIEW QUESTIONS
prepared by Rabbi Eliezer Chrysler
Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Jerusalem
Previous daf Chulin 17
(a) The Machlokes between Rebbi Akiva and Rebbi Yishmael is two-fold. Rebbi
1. ... Akiva holds - that Basar Ta'avah was never forbidden.
(b) Rebbi Akiva therefore, learns from the Pasuk ...
2. ... Yishmael holds - that Basar Nechirah was never permitted.
1. ... "ve'el Pesach Ohel Mo'ed Lo Hevi'o" - the Isur of Shechting one's
Kodshim outside the Ohel Mo'ed (Shechutei Chutz).
(c) Even though the Pasuk "ve'Chi Yirchak ... Ve'zavachta" is speaking about
Pesulei ha'Mukdashin, Rebbi Akiva nevertheless learns the Chiyuv Shechitah
by ordinary Chulin from there - since the Torah adds "ka'Tz'vi ve'cha'Ayal",
comparing 'Tzvi ve'Ayal' of Chulin to Pesulei ha'Mukdashin in this regard.
2. ... "be'Chol Avas Nafshecha Tochal Basar" - that one should not eat meat
S'tam, unless one has a desire for it (as we will learn in'Kisuy ha'Dam').
(a) According to Rebbi Yishmael, perhaps the Pasuk inserts "Ve'zavachta ...
" in the Pasuk of Ki Yirchak Mimcha ha'Makom", because it is natural to do
so when speaking about eating meat. We also learn from ...
1. ... "Ve'zavachta Ve'achalta" - that once Pesulei ha'Mukdashin are
redeemed, they may be eaten, but not shorn for their wool or worked with.
(b) Rebbi Akiva, who maintains that Shechitah only became a requisite after
they entered Eretz Yisrael, accounts for the Pasuk ...
2. ... "ki Yirchak ... Ve'zavachta" - that Chulin may not be Shechted in the
1. ... (in connection with the Korban Olah) "Ve'shachat es ben ha'Bakar" -
by confining it to Kodshim (which required Shechitah in the desert, too).
2. ... (in connection with the quails) "ha'Tzon u'Vakar Yishachet Lahem" -
as a manner of speech (inasmuch as Nechirah is their Shechitah).
(a) The Mishnah rules in Kisuy ha'Dam - that the blood of a Chayah that has
been improperly Shechted, that was torn open or whose Si'manim were torn
out - does not require Kisuy.
(b) This poses a Kashya on Rebbi Akiva - because we think that since it
required Kisuy ha'Dam in the desert according to him, it should also
requires Kisuy now as well.
(c) We answer - that since Basar Nechirah became Asur, a Chayah on which
Nechirah was performed, no longer requires Kisuy.
(a) We learn from the Pasuk (in connection with Pesulei ha'Mukdashin)"Ach
Ka'asher Ye'achel es ha'Tzvi ve'ha'Ayal Kein Tochlenah" - that just as Tzvi
ve'Ayal (which even in the desert, were permitted to be eaten as Chulin,
and) could be eaten even be'Tum'ah, so too, may one eat Bakar va'Tzon
be'Tum'ah (even though the latter are compared to Kodshim regarding
(b) And Rebbi Yishmael will explain that the implication that Tzvi ve'Ayal
could be eaten in the desert as Chulin is indeed correct, due to the fact
that they could not be brought as Kodshim.
(a) Rebbi Yirmiyah asks - whether Yisrael were allowed to eat the limbs of
Basar Nechirah that they brought into Eretz Yisrael from the desert.
(b) The point of the She'eilah - which is no longer practical, is 'D'rosh
ve'Kabeil S'char' (to receive reward for underatanding what happened, even
though it is no longer pertinent [see also Rosh Si'man 23]).
(c) The problem with that (based on the Pasuk in Re'ei "u'Batim Mele'im Kol
Tuv", from which Rebbi Yirmiyah bar Aba extrapolates that Yisrael were
allowed to eat whatever they found in Eretz Yisrael during the seven years
of Kibush [capturing the land], even sides of salted bacon) is - that if
Rebbi Yirmiyah's She'eilah refers to the period of the seven years of
Kibush, it is obvious from Rebbi Yirmiyah bar Aba's D'rashah that they were
(d) It must therefore pertain to - the post-Kibush period.
(a) We conclude that in fact, it might even concern the seven-year period of
'Kibush' - on the grounds that the Pasuk "u'Batim Mele'im Kol Tuv" refer
exclusively to the booty that they captured from the Cana'anim, but not to
their own food that had now become forbidden.
(b) The outcome of the She'eilah is - 'Teiku'.
(a) We explained the statements in our Mishnah 'ha'Kol Shochtin' (to include
birds), and 'Le'olam Shochtin' (to preclude Basar Nechirah after going into
Galus). We still need to explain - 'ba'Kol Shochtin'.
(b) Rava objects to the suggestion that 'ba'Kol Shochtin' comes to include a
detached rock, a piece of glass or the sharp edge of a reed - because that
would mean that it pertains to 'Shochtin' (what one Shechts with), whereas
'ha'Kol Shochtin' and 'Le'olam Shochtin' pertain to 'Nishchatin' (the ones
that are Shechted).
(c) Rava accepts the original suggestion with regard to 'ba'Kol Shochtin'.
Consequently, he establishes ...
1. ... the two 'ha'Kol Shochtin' (in the first two Mishnahs) - one to
include a 'Kuti' (under the supervision of a Yisrael), and the other, to
include a Yisrael Mumar (who is handed a knife that has been inspected).
2. ... 'Le'olam Shochtin' - to incorporate both by day and by night (by
torch light), both on top of a roof and on top of a boat (as we explained
(a) Shmuel's father made notches in Shechitah knives and sent them to Eretz
Yisrael - to find out which kind of notch renders a knife Pasul for
Shechitah, and which kind does not.
(b) After he had done this two or three times, they sent him a message 'like
a saw' meaning - that if, like the teeth of a saw, one's finger-nail catches
on one end of a notch when moving in one direction of the knife, and on the
other end when moving in the opposite direction, then it is Pasul. But if it
only catches when moving in one direction (i.e. all the teeth are pointing
in one direction, in which case, the fingernail does not get caught when
moving in the that direction [or if the other side of the notch is round and
not sharp]), then the knife is Kasher (and one is permitted to Shecht moving
the knife in the opposite direction).
(a) The Beraisa rules - that a knife that has many notches - is Pasul (like
(b) In the event, however, that it has only one, then if it is Ogeres, it is
Pasul; Mesuchseches, it is Kasher. Rebbi Elazar describes ...
1. ... Ogeres as - where the notch has two sharp edges (on which the
finger-nail gets caught) ...
(c) We ask that even Mesuchseches ought to be Pasul - because just as
Ogeres, the first sharp edge weakens the Si'man, and the second edge tears
it out, so too, has the knife that precedes the one sharp edge already
weakened the pipes, with the result that the sharp edge will tear the Si'man
2. ... Mesuchseches (meaning that the knife becomes 'enmeshed' in the
flesh) - where it has only one sharp edge (like the B'nei Eretz Yisrael
explained to Shmuel's father), because the other one has been rounded using
(d) We therefore establish the case when the sharp edge is situated at the
beginning of the knife (at the point where the Shochet begins to Shecht), so
that the pipes have not yet been weakened by the time the sharp edge cuts
them, in which case it will not tear them out. And it speaks when the knife
is long enough to perform the Shechitah out Chazarah).
(e) It is Pasul Lne way only (Halichah withoechatchilah - because we are
afraid that the Shochet may make Halichah and Chazarah, render the animal a
Neveilah, as at the last moment, the sharp edge tears out the Si'manim.
(a) What makes a sickle, which Beis-Hillel validate (even though it is full
of notches [as we will learn in the next Mishnah]), provided one Shechts
only in the direction going against the notches, better than Mesuchseches
is - the fact that there, the notches are at an acute angle, which will
prevent them from tearing the pipes.
(b) Rava lists three kinds of knives, an Ogeres, a Mesuchseches (which we
have already discussed) and an Oleh ve'Yored - which means that one deep
notch in the middle or two deep notches at the ends have been removed (using
a whetting-stone), leaving a rounded groove or bump (respectively).
(c) Rava rules - that it is Kasher Lechatchilah.
(d) And Rav Huna b'rei de'Rav Yehoshua reconciles his ruling that
Mesuchseches is Pasul, with the Beraisa that renders it Kasher - by
establishing the Beraisa when he made Holachah or Hova'ah only, as we
explained earlier, whereas he was speaking when he made both Holachah and
(a) Rav Acha b'rei de'Rav Ivya asked Rav Ashi about knife that is like a
Sa'as'ah (a beard of wheat) - by which he meant that it has a rough edge,
but no actual defect.
(b) Rav Ashi answered - that if someone would offer him such a knife with
which to Shecht, he would gladly use it.
(a) Rav Chisda learns from the Pasuk "u'Shechat'tem ba'Zeh" - which was said
by Shaul ha'Melech before handing the people a knife with which to Shecht
animals, that a Shechitah-knife requires inspection before use.
(b) The Pasuk must be referring specifically to the Bedikah before the
Shechitah - because after the Shechitah, where there is a Safek that the
Shochet may have made a hole in the Veshet before Shechting it (rendering
the animal a Neveilah), it is obvious that the knife needs to be examined.
(c) Rebbi Yochanan ascribes the obligation to examine the Shechitah knife
before the Shechitah - to respect for the Rav.
(d) We reconcile Rav Chisda's source with Rebbi Yochanan - by turning it
into a mere Asmachta (a support from a Pasuk, though the actual ruling is no
more than a de'Rabbanan (like the opinion of Rebbi Yochanan).
(a) In Eretz Yisrael (which is very sunny), they used to examine a knife in
the sun, and in Neherda'a (where there was more water than sunshine), they
examined it in water. This might mean holding the knife up to the sun, and
skimming the tip of the knife along the water and looking out for ripples.
1. ... 'ba'Shemesh', we might also mean - holding it blade upwards, against
the sun, and examining the shadow for defects.
(b) Rav Acha bar Ya'akov would run a hair along the length of the knife. In
Sura, they would examine the knife with flesh - meaning either the flesh of
one's finger, or of one's tongue - because, they maintained, seeing as it is
flesh that the knife will cut, it stands to reason that it should examined
2. ... 'be'Maya' - holding the knife, blade upwards, at a slant, and
allowing a drop of water to run down it, and see whether it gets caught in a
(c) Rav Papa is the strictest of all. He requires two Bedikos, one by flesh,
and the other, by a finger-nail (see Tosfos DH 'a'Bisra').
(d) Ravina asked Rav Ashi whether, what Rav Sama b'rei de'Rav Mesharshaya
quoted him as saying in the name of Rava, was correct. the latter
purportedly corroborated Rav Papa's ruling ('a'Bisra, a'Tufra, ve'a'T'las
Ruchsa' [or 'a'Terei Gisni').
(a) In reply to Ravina's question, Rav Ashi conceded to part of the
quotation, but denied part. According to one Lashon, he denied having
added 'a'Telasa Rushsa'; whereas according to the second Lashon - he had not
(b) When Rav Acha b'rei de'Rava handed Rav Ashi gave him a knife to
examine - he did exactly what Rav Ashi ruled one should do ('a'Bisra,
a'Tufra, ve'a'T'las Ruchsa'.
(c) Rav Kahana agreed with Rav Ashi's comment - 'Ye'asher (Kochacha)', which
is akin to 'Thank you'.
(a) Rav Yeimar disagreed however, on the basis of a ruling of Rav Zeira Amar
Shmuel who rules - that the sharpness of the knife precedes the heat of the
red-hot blade, and that such a Shechitah is therefore Kasher, because the
Shechitah precludes the burning.
(b) The ruling of Rav Ashi and Rav Kahana clashes with Rebbi Zeira -
inasmuch as according to the latter, it ought not to be necessary to examine
the sides of the knife (since the two walls of the cut neck, which open
outwards, are not touched by the knife.
(c) The Halachah however - is like Rav Ashi and Rav Kahana.