POINT BY POINT SUMMARY
Prepared by Rabbi P. Feldman
of Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Yerushalayim
Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
Ask A Question on the daf
Previous daf Chulin 80
CHULIN 80 - dedicated by Rabbi Kornfeld's father in memory of his aunt,
Malka Gitel bas Reb Yakov Mordechai (Malvina Marmorstein), who took him into
her home and raised him like her own child after the Holocaust. Her Yahrzeit
is 20 Nisan.
1) THE ARGUMENT ABOUT THE "KOY"
(a) (Rav Papa): Regarding Kisuy and Matanos, the Tana'im
discuss a Koy that is born from a male deer and a female
2) QUESTIONABLE "CHAYOS"
1. All are unsure whether we are concerned for the seed
of the father;
(b) Regarding Oso v'Es Beno, they discuss any child of a deer
2. Chachamim say that a partial Seh is a Seh; R.
Eliezer says, it is not.
1. If the mother is a deer, Chachamim forbid
(slaughtering the child and the child's child on the
same day - perhaps we are concerned for the seed of
the father, and it is a half-goat), R. Eliezer
permits (even if it is a half-goat, it is not
2. If the mother is a goat, Chachamim give lashes (for
slaughtering the child and its child on the same
day, since it is at least a half-goat), R. Eliezer
does not (but admits that it is forbidden, perhaps
it is a full goat.)
(a) (Rav Yehudah): A Koy is a species unto itself; Chachamim
were unable to decide if it is a Chayah or Behemah.
3) SLAUGHTER THAT DOES NOT PERMIT THE MEAT
(b) (Rav Nachman): A Koy is a wild ram (Tosfos - this is a
(c) Each holds like a different Tana:
1. (Beraisa): A Koy is a wild ram;
(d) (R. Zeira): Forest goats are Kosher for Korbanos (they
are considered goats.)
2. Some say, it is the child of a male goat and a
3. R. Yosi says, it is a species unto itself,
Chachamim could not decide if it is a Chayah or
4. R. Shimon ben Gamliel says, it is a Behemah; a
certain family grew great flocks of them.
1. He holds like R. Yitzchak.
(e) Question #1 (Rav Acha bar Yakov): "Wild goat and deer"
are Pratim, "Every animal" is a Klal;
2. (R. Yitzchak): The Torah lists only 10 Kosher
animals; since forest goats are not listed among the
Kosher Chayos, they must be (Behemos, i.e.) goats.
1. From a Prat and Klal, we include more things!
(f) Answer: If the Torah meant to include more species, it
would not have listed so many Pratim!
(g) Question #2: (Rav Acha brei d'Rav Ika): Perhaps the
forest goat is Ako (one of the Kosher Chayos that we do
(h) Question #3: (Rav Acha brei d'Rava): Perhaps it is Te'o
or Zemer (other Kosher Chayos!)
(i) (R. Chanan): Ameimar permitted Chelev of the forest goat
(he is sure it is a Chayah.)
(j) Question (Aba brei d'Rav Minyamin bar Chiya): Are forest
goats Kosher for Korbanos?
(k) Answer (Rav Huna bar Chiya): Chachamim and R. Yosi only
argue about a wild ox (this is the Arame'ic translation
of Te'o); all agree that forest goats are goats.
1. (Mishnah): A wild ox is a Behemah;
(l) Question #1: (Rav Acha brei d'Rav Ika): Perhaps the
forest goat is Ako!
2. R. Yosi says, it is a Chayah.
3. Chachamim learn from its Targum, 'Torbela (ox of the
4. R. Yosi says, since it is listed among the Chayos,
it is a Chayah.
(m) Question #2: (Rav Acha brei d'Rava): Perhaps it is Te'o
(n) (R. Chanan): Ameimar permitted Chelev of the forest goat
(he holds that it is a Chayah!)
(a) (Mishnah): If one slaughters...
(b) (R. Oshiya): The Mishnah is not like R. Shimon.
1. It says, if (a mother and son of) Kodshim are
slaughtered outside, the first slaughterer is Chayav
Kares, both slaughterers are lashed, and both
animals are forbidden;
2. R. Shimon holds that unfit slaughter (i.e. that does
not permit the meat) is not considered slaughter;
i. Since the first slaughter is not slaughter, the
second animal was a Kosher Korban when
slaughtered outside, the second slaughterer
should also get Kares!
4) LASHES FOR TRANSGRESSING "OSO V'ES BENO"
3. The Mishnah says, if Chulin are slaughtered inside,
the second slaughterer is lashed, and both animals
(c) Question: This is obvious!
i. According to R. Shimon, the first slaughter is
not slaughter, the second slaughterer should
not be lashed!
4. The Mishnah says, if Kodshim are slaughtered inside,
the first Korban is Kosher, the second is Pasul, the
second slaughterer is lashed;
i. According to R. Shimon slaughter of Kodshim is
an unfit slaughter (since it does not permit
the meat, Zerikah (throwing the blood) permits
it) - the second Korban should also be Kosher
and the slaughterer should not be lashed!
5. All these show that the Mishnah is not like R.
(d) Answer: One might have thought, slaughter of Kodshim is
considered proper slaughter, for it helps to permit the
1. If one did Nechirah, Zerikah would not permit the
meat; if one slaughters, Zerikah permits the meat!
2. R. Oshiya teaches that is not considered proper
slaughter (since it does not permit the meat
immediately, or because slaughter alone does not
(a) Question: There are no lashes (mentioned in the Mishnah)
for slaughtering a Korban too early - why not?
1. (Beraisa): "An ox or Seh that has an oversized
limb..." - this teaches that one who offers any
Pasul Korban transgresses "It will not be accepted".
(b) Answer #1: The Mishnah only mentions lashes for Oso v'Es
Beno, not for other Isurim.
(c) Objection: The Mishnah mentions lashes for Shechutei
1. (Mishnah): If both were Kodshim and slaughtered
outside, the first slaughterer is Chayav Kares, both
(d) Answer #2: The Mishnah only mentions lashes for other
Isurim if there are no lashes for Oso v'Es Beno.
i. The second is lashed for Oso v'Es Beno, but the
first is lashed for Shechutei Chutz!