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Bava Metzia 28

BAVA METZIA 28 (5 Teves) - Dedicated in memory of Max (Meir Menachem ben Shlomo ha'Levy) Turkel, on the day of his Yahrzeit, by his wife Jean and sons Eddie and Lawrence Turkel.


(a) On the assumption that Simanim are d'Oraysa, what does Rava say in a case where one person gives Simanim, and another ...
  1. ... gives Simanim too?
  2. ... brings witnesses?
(b) And what does he say if two people give the appropriate Simanim, and a third person brings one witness?

(c) Having just proved (from the Pasuk "ve'Hayah Imcha ad D'rosh Achicha Osos") that Simanim are d'Oraysa, why does Rava then use the expression 'On the assption that Simanim are d'Oraysa'?

(d) Why does he need to add this clause anyway, seeing as the same would apply if Simanim were de'Rabbanan?

2) Why, if one claimant ...
  1. ... brought witnesses that he lost it and another, that he wove it, would we follow the former?
  2. ... identified the width of the lost garment, and the other, the length, would we follow the latter?
  3. ... identified the length and the width of the garment, and the other, the measure of Gamav, would we give it to the former?
  4. ... identified the length and the width, and the other, the weight, would we give it to the latter?
(a) Rava then goes on to discuss a similar set of Dinim with regard to a lost Get.
Still assuming that Simanim are d'Oraysa, what does he rule in a case where both the husband and the wife identify the lost Get, or the lost string with which the Get is tied?

(b) Why in the previous case, can Rava not be referring to the identification of the Get's measurements, or the color of the string?

(c) Then what Siman is he referring to in the case of ...

  1. ... the Get?
  2. ... the string?
(d) To whom would one give the Get if both parties identified it by means of the box in which it was lying (see Shitah Mekubetzes)?
(a) According to Rebbi Meir in our Mishnah, the finder only needs to announce the Aveidah until the neighbors get to know about it.
What does Rebbi Yehudah say?

(b) Why the extra seven days (after the third Yom-Tov)?

(c) Which neighbors is Rebbi Meir referring to?

(d) Why can he not be referring to the neighbors of the article's owner?

(a) When should we pray for rain according to the Tana Kama in the Mishnah in Ta'anis?

(b) On what basis does Raban Gamliel say on the seventh?

(c) What problem does this pose on Rebbi Meir, who requires the finder of a lost article to announce the article for seven days?

(d) To answer the Kashya, we differentiate between the period of the first Beis Hamikdash and that of the second. In the time of the first Beis-Hamikdash, Yisrael are described by the Navi as being as numerous as the sand by the sea-shore.
How many were there in the time of the second?

(a) How does Rav Yosef initially explain the above distinction to reconcile the discrepancy between the to Mishnahs?

(b) On what grounds does Abaye reject Rav Yosef's explanation?

(c) So how does Abaye reconcile the two Mishnahs?

(d) Rava does not differentiate between the two Batei Mikdash.
How does he reconcile our Mishnah with the Mishnah in Ta'anis? Why will seven days suffice according to him?

(a) What does Ravina extrapolate from the fact that we only give the loser seven days and not eight, to check on his objects?

(b) How does Rava counter Ravina's proof?

(a) What would the finder announce ...
  1. ... on the first and second Yom-Tov respectively?
  2. ... on the third Yom-Tov?
(b) Why was this necessary?

(c) If he did not announce 'Regel Shelishi' in case the loser understood 'Regel Sheini', then why are we not afraid that on the second Yom-Tov, the loser might think he heard 'Regel Rishon'?

Answers to questions



(a) The seven days required by Rebbi Yehudah refer to the time of the Beis-Hamikdash.
What does the Beraisa say one should do ...
... nowadays, when there is no Beis-Hamikdash? ... when there are Anasin? Who are the Anasin?
(b) What did a certain Roman say to Rebbi Ami when he saw him trembling, because he had found an Aveidah?

(c) What was the 'E'ven ha'To'en'?

(d) Who told whom to go and see whether the E'ven ha'To'en was covered, and what did he mean by that?

(a) From where does our Mishnah learn that one does not return a lost article to a swindler, even if he gives the correct Simanim?

(b) Rav Yehudah holds that the finder announces he found *an article*, and the loser must identify it, because we are afraid of swindlers.
What does he mean by that?

(c) And why does Rav Nachman not contend with swindlers?

(d) Our Mishnah states 'Amar es ha'Aveidah, ve'Lo Amar Simanehah, Lo Yiten Lo'.
What Kashya does this pose on Rav Nachman?

(e) How do we answer it?

(a) What Takanah did the Chachamim instigate when they saw that swindlers were posing as the owners of lost objects and giving the right Simanim?

(b) What happened when Rav Papa's father lost a donkey and, at the request of Beis-Din, he brought witnesses to say that he was not a swindler?

(c) On what grounds did they accept the witnesses explanation that they meant was 'Yes, we know that he is not a swindler'?

(d) Why would they have otherwise forbidden him to receive his article?

(a) What distinction does our Mishnah draw between an Aveidah that eats and works, and one that eats but does not work?

(b) Why does the finder not have the option of selling an animal that does work, and giving the owner the money?

(c) How do we derive the Din by an animal that does not work from the Pasuk "va'Hashevoso Lo"?

(d) Rebbi Tarfon permits the finder to use the money that he receives for an animal that does not work, whereas Rebbi Akiva forbids it.
What are the ramifications of their Machlokes?

(a) What Shiur does Rav Nachman Amar Shmuel give for looking after a donkey and a cow which eat and work?

(b) The Beraisa corroborates Shmuel's ruling.
What Shiur does the Tana give for looking after ...

  1. ... a calf and a filly, which do not work?
  2. ... a gander and a rooster?
(c) What does the finder do after this period has elapsed?

(d) What does Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak say about chickens?

(a) Another Beraisa corroborates the statement of Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak. The two Beraisos contradict each other however, in two points.
How do we reconcile the first Beraisa with the second Beraisa, which gives the Shiur for ...
  1. ... calves and fillies as thirty days?
  2. ... ganders and roosters as three days?
(b) Why is the period that one looks after ganders and roosters shorter than that of calves and fillies?
Answers to questions

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