POINT BY POINT SUMMARY
Prepared by Rabbi P. Feldman
of Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Yerushalayim
Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
Ask A Question on the daf
Previous daf Bava Kama 8
1) WHEN A CREDITOR DOES NOT GET BEINONIS
(a) Rav Chisda also answered, the case is, the borrower had
Idis and sold it.
2) COLLECTING FROM BUYERS
(b) Support (Beraisa): If he has Beinonis and Ziburis -
damages are collected from Beinonis, debts and Kesuvos
are collected from Ziburis.
1. Question: This contradicts the other Beraisa!
2. Answer #1: Rather, the first Beraisa is when the
borrower had Idis and sold it; the second Beraisa is
when he never had Idis.
3. Answer #2: In both Beraisos, he did not (have and)
i. The first Beraisa is when his Beinonis is as
world Idis; the second Beraisa is when it is
4. Answer #3: In both Beraisos, his Beinonis is not as
i. The Tana of the first Beraisa holds that we
judge by his land; the other Tana holds that we
go by the world standard.
5. Answer #4 (Ravina): The Beraisos argue regarding
i. (Ula): Mid'Oraisa, a creditor collects Ziburis
- "You will stand outside, the borrower will
give you a pledge (from his house)" - surely,
the borrower will give a low quality pledge.
ii. Chachamim enacted that creditors collect
Beinonis, so people will not be reluctant to
iii. The first Tana holds as Ula; the second Tana
says that no enactment was made.
(a) A debtor sold (Idis, Beinonis and Ziburis) to 1 person,
or to 3 people at the same time - they are all in place
of the seller (when damagees, creditors and ex-wives come
1. If they bought at different times - all collect from
the last buyer.
(b) Question: What is the case when land was sold to 1
i. If after collecting all his land there are
still debts, they collect from the previous
buyer; when his land is finished, from the
1. Suggestion: He bought all 3 lands at the same time.
(c) Answer: Rather, the person bought at 3 different times.
2. Rejection: When he sells to 3 people (on the same
day), it is possible that they bought at different
times on that day, still we say that they are all in
place of the seller;
i. Obviously, when 1 person bought all the proper,
he is in place of the seller!
(d) Rhetorical question: Why when 3 people buy at different
times, all collect from the last? Because the previous
buyers can say 'I left you room to collect from (the
seller, i.e. when I bought, he still had other land - you
must collect that other land before you can take my
1. Question: Also 1 person can say, I first bought the
Idis and Beinonis, leaving you room to collect from
2. Answer: The case is, the last land he bought was
3. Question: If so, everyone should collect from Idis!
4. Answer #1: The buyer threatens them - be satisfied
with what you are entitled to - if not, I will
return the document of sale of Ziburis to the
seller, and you will all collect Ziburis!
(e) Levi bought all 3 lands (Idis was the last), then he sold
the Beinonis and Ziburis - clearly, everyone collects
from Idis, since they have a lien on it, and he cannot
tell them to take Beinonis or Ziburis in its place;
i. Question: If so, he can also threaten the
damagee - why does the damagee get Idis?
5. Answer #2: Rather, the buyer tells them: this that
we do not collect from sold property when the debtor
still has land, is an enactment to help the buyer -
I do not want the enactment.
ii. Answer: The case is, the damager died; orphans
have no MItzvah to pay their father's
obligation, so the damagee cannot collect from
iii. Even if the orphans receive back the Ziburis,
the damagee will still collect from the buyer.
i. This is as Rava taught (elsewhere).
ii. (Rava): Anyone who says 'I don't want the
enactment Chachamim made to help me' - in a
case like this, this claim is accepted.
iii. Question: What case does Rava refer to?
iv. Answer: Rav Huna's law - a woman can tell her
husband, do not feed me, I will not work for
you. (The enactment that a woman works for her
husband, and he feeds her, was to help her.)
(f) Question: What if he sold only the Idis?
(g) Answer #1 (Abaye): Everyone collects from Idis.
(h) Objection (Rava): The first seller sold all rights he had
to the property; if Levi still had all the property, he
could tell (the creditors and ex-wives) to collect from
Beinonis and Ziburis, even though he bought the Idis
1. He can say, 'I don't want the enactment that we do
not collect from sold property when the debtor still
has land' (for this would entitle them to collect
(i) (Implied answer #2 - Rava): Everyone collects as their
2. Also Reuven sold all rights he had to the property,
which includes the right to say that the enactment
does not apply (so debts and Kesuvos will be
collected from Beinonis and Ziburis.)
(j) (Rava): Reuven sold all his fields to Shimon; Shimon sold
1 field to Levi. Reuven's creditor may choose to collect
from Shimon or Levi.
1. This is only if Shimon sold Beinonis - if he sold
Idis or Ziburis, Levi can say, I was careful to buy
land you can collect from.
2. Also, this is only when Levi bought all the Beinonis
- if not, he can say, I left you room to collect
(a) [Version #1 (Abaye): Reuven sold land to Shimon with
Achrayus (responsibility to compensate him if it is taken
away); Reuven's creditor Levi collected it. Reuven can
take Levi to Beis Din (if he says that Levi was not
entitled to take it);
1. Levi cannot say, you have no claim against me (only
Shimon does), because Shimon will force Reuven to
(b) [Version #2: Even if Reuven sold to Shimon without
Achrayus, Reuven can take Levi to Beis Din;
1. Reuven can say, I don't want Shimon to have
complaints against me (that I caused him a loss).]
(c) (Abaye): Reuven sold land to Shimon without Achrayus;
other people protested, claiming it is theirs.
1. Before Shimon makes a Chazakah, he can retract from
the purchase; after making Chazakah, he cannot.
(d) Question: What is considered a Chazakah (regarding this
2. Question: Why not?
3. Answer: Reuven can claim, you knew that you were
taking a chance.
(e) Answer: When he walks around the borders.
(f) [Version #1: This only applies if Shimon bought without
Achrayus - if he bought with Achrayus, he can retract.]
(g) [Version #2: Even if he bought with Achrayus, Reuven can
say, when they legally take it from you, I will return