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prepared by Rabbi Eliezer Chrysler
Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Jerusalem

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Bava Basra 164


(a) We learned earlier that Rav validates a Sh'tar which is written and signed on an erased spot. We query this however, 've'Im Tomar Mochek ve'Chozer u'Mochek?'
What do we mean by that?

(b) How do we answer this Kashya?

(c) Why are we not then afraid that the Ba'al ha'Sh'tar will first pour ink on the area of the signatures and erase it, before pouring ink on the entire Sh'tar and erasing it, so that when he erases the section that he did not erase the first time and writes whatever he wishes, it will all have been erased twice?

(a) According to Rav, what would we be afraid of in a case where a Sh'tar appeared on clean parchment, and the witnesses signed on a spot which had been erased?

(b) Then how will Rav explain the Beraisa which validates a Sh'tar that is written in this way? Under which condition will it be Kasher?

(c) Why can this not be speaking when they wrote it ...

  1. ... after the two signatures?
  2. ... before the two signatures?
(d) So how does the Tana speak? Where *did* the witnesses write this statement?
(a) What does the Seifa of the Beraisa say about a Sh'tar that is written on an erased spot, and the witnesses, on a clean Sh'tar?

(b) Why can we not validate the Sh'tar, by the witnesses inserting this information into the Sh'tar, like we did in the previous case? What are we still worried about?

(c) But did we not learn earlier that the difference between a Sh'tar that has been erased once and one that has been erased twice is easily discernible?

(d) So why do we not bring another piece of parchment, write on it and erase it, and then compare it with the Sh'tar in question?

(a) We then ask why we cannot erase the witnesses' signatures and compare that erased area to the other erased area.
What would the Ba'al ha'Sh'tar then do about his witnesses' signatures?

(b) How does Rav Hoshaya answer the basic Kashya?

(c) We ask why we do then not wait for a day and then compare them.
What does Rebbi Yirmiyah say about that?

(d) Others erase the previous Kashya from their texts (see Tosfos DH 've'li'Shehaya').
What is Rebbi Yirmiyah then coming to answer?

Answers to questions



(a) Rebbi Chanina ben Gamliel in our Mishnah validates a Mekushar whose witnesses signed inside the Sh'tar on the grounds that it can be transformed into a Pashut.
What does Rebbi mean when he asks 've'Ha Eino Domeh Zemano shel Zeh li'Zemano shel Zeh'?

(b) What ptoblem was Rebbi referring to when he made that comment?

(c) What must Rebbi Chanina ben Gamliel hold to repudiate this Kashya?

(a) All this assumes that Rebbi was conversant with a Sh'tar Mekushar.
What did Rebbi comment when a Sh'tar Mekushar was once brought to him?

(b) What did Zonin answer him?

(c) Why did Chazal institute this?

(d) How do we then reconcile the previous episode with this one, from which it appears that Rebbi was not conversant with a Sh'tar Mekushar?

(a) What did Rebbi Chanina instruct them to do, when a Sh'tar appeared in Beis-Din dated 'bi'Shenas P'loni Orchan'?

(b) On what grounds do we query Rebbi Chanina's ruling? What else might 'Orchan' mean, and from when would the creditor be permitted to claim?

(c) We uphold Rebbi Chanina's ruling however, on the basis of a statement by Rav Hoshaya.
What did Rav Hoshaya say about ...

  1. ... 'Orchan'?
  2. ... 'Digun'?
(d) And how do we know that the king was not dethroned and recrowned, and that the Sh'tar was not written in the first year of his second crowning?
(a) The Beraisa quotes Sumchus, who presents the different Leshonos of Nezirus.
If 'Hareini Nazir Hina' implies one set of Nezirus, and 'Digun' implies two, what is the meaning of 'T'rigun', 'Tatrigun' and Pantigun' respectively?

(b) Another Beraisa discusses various shaped houses with regard to Tum'as Tzara'as.
What does the Tana mean when it refers to ...

  1. ... a two-sided house?
  2. ... a Pentagon?
(c) How is it possible to have a one-sided house?

(d) Where in the Torah, do we find a source for 'Hiyna' meaning 'one'?

(a) What do a circular house, a house of two sides, three sides or five sides have in common?

(b) From where does the Beraisa learn this?

(c) How about the third Pasuk "ve'Hinei ha'Nega be'Kiyros ha'Bayis"?

(a) We already cited the case where Rebbi thought that the Sh'tar Mekushar that came before him was undated.
What prompted Rebbi to give his son Rebbi Shimon a dirty look (after the latter pointed out that the date was to be found absorbed between the knots)?

(b) So what if he had written it?

(c) what did Rebbi Shimon say that caused Rebbi to order him to desist from speaking Lashon ha'Ra?

(d) What should he then have said?

(a) And what had Rebbi said on another occasion that elicited the same comment from Rebbi Shimon?

(b) This was considered Lashon ha'Ra, following a Beraisa cited by Rav Dimi the brother of Rav Safra.
What did the Tana say there concerning speaking good about a fellow-Jew?

(a) What does the Beraisa say about lewd thoughts, Iyun Tefilah and Lashon ha'Ra? What do they have in common?

(b) What is 'Iyun Tefilah'?

(c) How can the Tana say that everyone transgresses Lashon ha'Ra each day?
What does he really mean?

(d) What does Rav Yehudah Amar Rav say about Gezel, Arayos and Avak Lashon ha'Ra?

Answers to questions

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